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Post by AVC on Jan 17, 2018 19:32:22 GMT -5
Hi all. I have been running the numbers on weapon damage, having got a single ST from the event and mixing it with either an Orkan or Taran on my Kumiho. Below is a spreadsheet listing level 9 damage and ranges for the various weapons. I have left out bullet weapons at this stage as they have different damage at different ranges (I am in the process of doing some tests and levelling weapons to do them). As the spreadsheet shows the Shocktrain is LESS powerful than the Orkan or Taran, except it has the range advantage of 500m. When compared to similar-range, medium weapons, it has DOUBLE the DPS. The other advantage of the Shocktrain (not counting chain damage) is it's instant discharge time. For a dash bot that can duck in and out of cover, a major advantage. Additionally, it's almost auto aim. IMO these things DO make the S-Train OP. Maybe an advertising campaign is in order. Make It ST-OP.  On paper the Taran is King Of The Hill, but your have to have yourself exposed for the time is takes to unload. making the Lance the ideal platform.  Data taken from War Robots Wiki As soon as I have the numbers in on bullet weapons I will share it here. I have done some numbers on the Thunder and the results are quite astonishing. I can only test using my iOS account as FBGR has noCustom Game facility so I have to level up some things to run the tests. |
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Post by Joopiter on Jan 18, 2018 8:35:23 GMT -5
I got 1 from wsp and 2 from the event and run them from time to time. I've leveled them up to 11's and it's fun to play, but IMO the three medium points on a dash are better served with Tarans or Orkans. Not to mention how many other shielded bots are out there like bulgasari's and lancelots. And as cool as the whiirrrrr sound is when it kicks in during a charge, it really takes away the element of surprise against decent or better players.
I wouldn't say they're overrated, but I'd say they're very powerful given the range. But level 12 orkans are similarly powerful and can splash the hell out of you around corners.
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Post by snk on Jan 18, 2018 8:45:02 GMT -5
It these figures are correct, Pin and Tulumbus are sad. Slightly more dps then Spiral and Hydra with less range and need to expose yourself. Even Gekko has higher dps than Pin.
Look at the table, there is a reason Zeus and ST (+Tempest) dominance the mid range in some maps now. Especially for the people who have full MKII for 2 hangers.
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Post by eco on Jan 18, 2018 9:01:07 GMT -5
It these figures are correct, Pin and Tulumbus are sad. Slightly more dps then Spiral and Hydra with less range and need to expose yourself. Even Gekko has higher dps than Pin. Look at the table, there is a reason Zeus and ST (+Tempest) dominance the mid range in some maps now. Especially for the people who have full MKII for 2 hangers. with pin and tulumba you can fire from 500m and hit bots under cover I use them alot and think they are just slightly underpowered |
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Post by rustedscrap on Jan 18, 2018 9:12:23 GMT -5
Shock trains damage on its 1st target isn't bad or op. Its the chain damage to nearby blues that I have issue with.
I got 3 Shock trains 2from event and 1 with a combo of wsp+money and I do use them from time to time on my bulge.
It's not the damage that necessarily is the problem it's the psychological effect of the chain damage as it prevents team from playing, well, as a team as they have no choice but to spread out.
For every player that doesn't own Shocktrains they think these weapons are ungodly, unfair op weapons that should be banned.
For me and my clannies that own shocks they are a lazy man's do nothing collect silver and top damage award weapons that don't add any element of fun or excitement to the game...that should be banned.
#banshocktrains
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Post by Koalabear on Jan 18, 2018 9:14:52 GMT -5
The damage alone isn't what makes the Shocktrains so deadly. It's when you have 3 of them, paired with dash, and a pilot who is using good cover, AND good team mates who are keeping the reds busy. Inside the ship on Dreadnought is awesome for a brawl, and the side with a ST user will have a major advantage.
Funny story... I used to think I was unable to kill Ancilots with my ST Bulg and I was seriously missing my Orkans and Storms. Then, yesterday, I had an epiphany and I ran the number. Even at level 10, I can take out a level 12 Lance's shield in 3 shots. If I play it right, that Lance will have no chance. Today, I got a chance to try it out. Too bad it was a game where I had tankers on my team. But, I did take out a Tarancilot's physical shield in 3 shots, and I got him down to about half health before his backup killed me with Orkans from behind.
Another thing with the ST's is that it is literally the only weapon that you can use DURING a dash that will still do full damage. It's become one of my favourite moves. If I see a bot that I know will die with one more blast, and I see that it's about to get to cover, I'll dash out and fire while dashing. It's quite the rush!
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Post by The VVatcher on Jan 18, 2018 9:51:48 GMT -5
That spreadsheet doesn’t account the damage done to nearby teammates. It’s additional 23k damage to the first guy it bounces to. That’s about 68k damage from a level 12, per shot every 8 seconds.
This is why you see people shoot shields anyway because it still bounces to someone and they get damage for it.
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Post by Domino on Jan 18, 2018 9:59:10 GMT -5
It's potential (due to chaining) far exceeds the on paper representation of the DPS. In real world I will see a ST user vs. the time on the field with ST... the results are impressive. It is not uncommon to see over 1 mill from 3xST alone.
While Tarans and Orkans can potentially more dmg it also involves alot more risk, more risk means less time being able to maximize dmg due to premature death.
ST should have really been a heavy point, Arbalest should be a medium point (no chain dmg and maybe bump up the dmg output to fit a medium weapon) and tweak dmg from there. That thought alone would have saved a TON of misery and belly aching that we are seeing now.
So first target at lvl 12 x 3 ST = 46,500, if the red is within 150m (9/10 they are) that dmg just went up to 69,750, if there's red within 150m of them it's 81,375 dmg. I can't remember the exact detials but i'm using 50% dmg on the first chain, 50% of that dmg on the second chain, 50% dmg of previous chain for the next, up to 5 I believe. So on a map like Valley or Moon, I can see almost 100k dmg per hit being achieved consistently.
6 players = collective pool of HP. So look at it in that context and you really see how devastating ST can be
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subha
Destrier
Posts: 72
Karma: 62
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Post by subha on Jan 18, 2018 10:06:34 GMT -5
That spreadsheet doesn’t account the damage done to nearby teammates. It’s additional 23k damage to the first guy it bounces to. That’s about 68k damage from a level 12, per shot every 8 seconds. This is why you see people shoot shields anyway because it still bounces to someone and they get damage for it. 16 sec |
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Post by pirateb0t on Jan 18, 2018 10:52:19 GMT -5
I have been using my maxed shocktrains that I won during the event for a few weeks now. I sped up the last few levels to get to 12 fast. I would say that at champion league shocktrains are not really OP. A lot of champ players know how to deal with ST setups now.
I've noticed that a lot of higher league players will simply drop in lancelots or even run a fury trident or fury zeus if they see a shocktrain on the field.
I do the same thing myself..if I notice a shocktrain on the field I just jump in my lancelot and grab beacons.
You can avoid a lot of shocktrain mayhem by simply using cover well and keeping at least half your torso concealed.
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Post by snk on Jan 18, 2018 11:28:40 GMT -5
It these figures are correct, Pin and Tulumbus are sad. Slightly more dps then Spiral and Hydra with less range and need to expose yourself. Even Gekko has higher dps than Pin. Look at the table, there is a reason Zeus and ST (+Tempest) dominance the mid range in some maps now. Especially for the people who have full MKII for 2 hangers. with pin and tulumba you can fire from 500m and hit bots under cover I use them alot and think they are just slightly underpowered I agree around 20m Splash is nice, but Zeus Advantage 1 Zeus dps just slightly less than 2 Pin + 2 Tulumbus, Zeus Fury = 3 RDB dps 100m more range ignore Ancile Zeus Disadvantage no splash can’t ignore shield If every red is running Galahad, Rhino. RDB may be better, otherwise I prefer Zeus, ST or Tempest. I am still running 10/12 RDB Griffin in iOS Champions League, there are only few bots (Galahad, Rhino and none Ancile Lancelot) you can hit them full salvo with damage. All others bots can either use abilities dodge your damage or with Ancile. It will be replaced. |
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Post by darkknight on Jan 18, 2018 12:49:37 GMT -5
Two st are ok, not so good But three of them are deadly. I just crossed 1.5 mil damage after I started using them and almost all of my matches I usually score 800k+ damage now and my st are lvl 11,11,12 Now mk2 is in whole different leaugue. Orkan full clip does 45,760 damage with reload time of 23 sec Shocktrain does 11700x3 =35,100 ( mostly ) in 24 sec assuming it does not hit second target. Now I guess 10k damage more isn’t much compared to 200m more range and instant damage ,while with orkans you have more chance to get killed faster. A bot equipped with orkans can’t last whole match alone but a Shocktrain bulg can  .So without any doubt st is op |
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Post by bronzeknee on Jan 18, 2018 13:04:57 GMT -5
The reason the Shocktrain is overpowered is that it is a low risk, low skill, high reward weapon that deals too much damage. Sure the Orkan and Taran have potential to do huge damage, but the Orkan you have to get inside the range of every other weapon in the game, there is a lot risk involved in that and it takes skill, so it high risk, high skill, high reward. The Taran requires you to expose yourself for time it takes to unload a full clip and aim that entire time, another high risk, high reward, high skill weapon.
The Shocktrain deals 94% of the damage a Zeus does versus a single target. That doesn't make sense given one is a medium and one is heavy weapon. Unlike the Taran the Shocktrain deals instant damage meaning it has one the lowest (if not the lowest) exposure times in the game. Additionally, it is a mid range weapon, so you don't have to work your way into the range of most of the top tier weapons to deal huge damage like you do with the Orkan. Thus, it fits perfectly with Dash Robots that can Dash from cover, fire and return to cover often before they can take any meaningful counterfire.
The fact the damage then bounces adds insult to injury. I've been playing video games for more than 20 years, I've never seen a more overpowered or poorly designed weapon. It nigh impossible to defeat a team with Shocktrains without them. You can't approach someone with a Shocktrain protected by teammates with a squad, and you can't go it alone. You just lose.
But the Storm and Gust are also blatantly overpowered compared to a Thunder, so we should all just ignore balance, it doesn't exist in this game. This is not a competitive game anymore, it just a farming game.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jan 18, 2018 14:19:09 GMT -5
It these figures are correct, Pin and Tulumbus are sad. Slightly more dps then Spiral and Hydra with less range and need to expose yourself. Even Gekko has higher dps than Pin. Look at the table, there is a reason Zeus and ST (+Tempest) dominance the mid range in some maps now. Especially for the people who have full MKII for 2 hangers. True, but nothing kills physically shielded bots and bots behind cover like pin/tulumbus/trident builds. |
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Post by Domino on Jan 18, 2018 14:21:10 GMT -5
It these figures are correct, Pin and Tulumbus are sad. Slightly more dps then Spiral and Hydra with less range and need to expose yourself. Even Gekko has higher dps than Pin. Look at the table, there is a reason Zeus and ST (+Tempest) dominance the mid range in some maps now. Especially for the people who have full MKII for 2 hangers. True, but nothing kills physically shielded bots and bots behind cover like pin/tulumbus/trident builds. Agreed. Nothing like someone hiding around a corner thinking their safe... then you Splash a whole salvo and there goes 1/3 of HP. |
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jan 18, 2018 14:24:19 GMT -5
The reason the Shocktrain is overpowered is that it is a low risk, low skill, high reward weapon that deals too much damage. Sure the Orkan and Taran have potential to do huge damage, but the Orkan you have to get inside the range of every other weapon in the game, there is a lot risk involved in that and it takes skill, so it high risk, high skill, high reward. The Taran requires you to expose yourself for time it takes to unload a full clip and aim that entire time, another high risk, high reward, high skill weapon. The Shocktrain deals 94% of the damage a Zeus does versus a single target. That doesn't make sense given one is a medium and one is heavy weapon. Unlike the Taran the Shocktrain deals instant damage meaning it has one the lowest (if not the lowest) exposure times in the game. Additionally, it is a mid range weapon, so you don't have to work your way into the range of most of the top tier weapons to deal huge damage like you do with the Orkan. Thus, it fits perfectly with Dash Robots that can Dash from cover, fire and return to cover often before they can take any meaningful counterfire. The fact the damage then bounces adds insult to injury. I've been playing video games for more than 20 years, I've never seen a more overpowered or poorly designed weapon. It nigh impossible to defeat a team with Shocktrains without them. You can't approach someone with a Shocktrain protected by teammates with a squad, and you can't go it alone. You just lose. But the Storm and Gust are also blatantly overpowered compared to a Thunder, so we should all just ignore balance, it doesn't exist in this game. This is not a competitive game anymore, it just a farming game. Proper ambush tactics are NOT "low skill". Low risk and high reward are spot on however. Would not take that much to make shocktrains balanced. My favorite idea is increasing the reload time to 12 seconds and increasing the "lock-on" time. Damage or range reductions could work too though. |
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Post by hyderier on Jan 18, 2018 16:14:20 GMT -5
That is average DPS you are calculating. You should calculate also burst DPS (DPS while firing at full rate), and cycle damage (damage before needing to reload). Without these figures, average DPS is almost meaningless.
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Post by snk on Jan 18, 2018 22:27:56 GMT -5
True, but nothing kills physically shielded bots and bots behind cover like pin/tulumbus/trident builds. Agreed. Nothing like someone hiding around a corner thinking their safe... then you Splash a whole salvo and there goes 1/3 of HP. This sounds good, but this also mean RDB need 3 salvo or almost a minute to kill a afk Level 12 Bulgasari. While Zeus Fury would have done 500k+ damage. Which mean even Bulgasari 100% use his shield will break and die with just tiny bit more time, but to all other bots include Ancile bot, Zeus is 500% more effective. I honestly think RDB need a buff, because I find it isn’t competitive in iOS Champions League anymore. |
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Post by selvarajrajkanna on Jan 18, 2018 23:01:07 GMT -5
The reason the Shocktrain is overpowered is that it is a low risk, low skill, high reward weapon that deals too much damage. Sure the Orkan and Taran have potential to do huge damage, but the Orkan you have to get inside the range of every other weapon in the game, there is a lot risk involved in that and it takes skill, so it high risk, high skill, high reward. The Taran requires you to expose yourself for time it takes to unload a full clip and aim that entire time, another high risk, high reward, high skill weapon. The Shocktrain deals 94% of the damage a Zeus does versus a single target. That doesn't make sense given one is a medium and one is heavy weapon. Unlike the Taran the Shocktrain deals instant damage meaning it has one the lowest (if not the lowest) exposure times in the game. Additionally, it is a mid range weapon, so you don't have to work your way into the range of most of the top tier weapons to deal huge damage like you do with the Orkan. Thus, it fits perfectly with Dash Robots that can Dash from cover, fire and return to cover often before they can take any meaningful counterfire. The fact the damage then bounces adds insult to injury. I've been playing video games for more than 20 years, I've never seen a more overpowered or poorly designed weapon. It nigh impossible to defeat a team with Shocktrains without them. You can't approach someone with a Shocktrain protected by teammates with a squad, and you can't go it alone. You just lose. But the Storm and Gust are also blatantly overpowered compared to a Thunder, so we should all just ignore balance, it doesn't exist in this game. This is not a competitive game anymore, it just a farming game. Your low skill low risk high reward statement is true only when you mount it on a dash bot. The damage compared to Zeus is quite unfair because shocktrain need 8 secs to charge completely. Nerfing damage or range will render the weapon useless but cutting off the damage chain will be good because no one is planning to hit the 3rd closest bot of their target. Just my 2 cents |
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Post by Domino on Jan 19, 2018 9:15:27 GMT -5
Agreed. Nothing like someone hiding around a corner thinking their safe... then you Splash a whole salvo and there goes 1/3 of HP. This sounds good, but this also mean RDB need 3 salvo or almost a minute to kill a afk Level 12 Bulgasari. While Zeus Fury would have done 500k+ damage. Which mean even Bulgasari 100% use his shield will break and die with just tiny bit more time, but to all other bots include Ancile bot, Zeus is 500% more effective. I honestly think RDB need a buff, because I find it isn’t competitive in iOS Champions League anymore. Agreed, however a RDB griffin (or even Rhino) has mobility to help capture beacons and cover angles that would take a fury a lot longer. That has some weight in the discussion, but overall dmg king held by Zeus Fury |
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Post by vin5240 on Jan 19, 2018 16:03:44 GMT -5
I have been using my maxed shocktrains that I won during the event for a few weeks now. I sped up the last few levels to get to 12 fast. I would say that at champion league shocktrains are not really OP. A lot of champ players know how to deal with ST setups now. I've noticed that a lot of higher league players will simply drop in lancelots or even run a fury trident or fury zeus if they see a shocktrain on the field. I do the same thing myself..if I notice a shocktrain on the field I just jump in my lancelot and grab beacons. You can avoid a lot of shocktrain mayhem by simply using cover well and keeping at least half your torso concealed. I think that may be the reason why I think it wasn't really that op to me and I got so much heat from the forum members for saying so. They aren't that much of a problem for me honestly and as for chain damage, if you have a shield bot, you just need to turn you shield towards the person that you see going out of cover and you will block the chain damage. There's always 3-4 shock trains every game and they aren't really that big of a deal because yes they are strong but they got no pushing power for beacons so they can choose to sit back all they want, we will just take the beacons and wait them out. And...people won't try to hide or avoid you if you are using shock trains, they are gonna go after you for the kill. I have 3 shock trains as well (2 from event and 1 saved up from wsp) and I chose not to put them on my bulgasari( also from event) because the triple taran setup is just too powerful to give up. I went after a shock train bulgasari and killed him without taking much damage, he spawns with orkan haechi, I killed that from playing a little range and dashing to dodge, he spawn another orkan haechi and I killed that too but my dashes were all used up so I was almost dead anyway when I killed that one. I just killed 3 dashes with one lol. imo the taran bulg does a better job at being a lancelot than the lancelot because that side shield is stronger than a rhino's. I chose to use 2 shock trains and put them on my lance combined with a zeus instead. Dash bots like to dash in, fire and dash out quickly to get our of range from RDB and other ST, but the zeus is 600m so I got an advantage there hehehehe. Most of the time they just choose a different target instead because they don't want to deal with me lmao |
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Post by Thunderkiss on Jan 19, 2018 16:04:23 GMT -5
The reason the Shocktrain is overpowered is that it is a low risk, low skill, high reward weapon that deals too much damage. Sure the Orkan and Taran have potential to do huge damage, but the Orkan you have to get inside the range of every other weapon in the game, there is a lot risk involved in that and it takes skill, so it high risk, high skill, high reward. The Taran requires you to expose yourself for time it takes to unload a full clip and aim that entire time, another high risk, high reward, high skill weapon. The Shocktrain deals 94% of the damage a Zeus does versus a single target. That doesn't make sense given one is a medium and one is heavy weapon. Unlike the Taran the Shocktrain deals instant damage meaning it has one the lowest (if not the lowest) exposure times in the game. Additionally, it is a mid range weapon, so you don't have to work your way into the range of most of the top tier weapons to deal huge damage like you do with the Orkan. Thus, it fits perfectly with Dash Robots that can Dash from cover, fire and return to cover often before they can take any meaningful counterfire. The fact the damage then bounces adds insult to injury. I've been playing video games for more than 20 years, I've never seen a more overpowered or poorly designed weapon. It nigh impossible to defeat a team with Shocktrains without them. You can't approach someone with a Shocktrain protected by teammates with a squad, and you can't go it alone. You just lose. But the Storm and Gust are also blatantly overpowered compared to a Thunder, so we should all just ignore balance, it doesn't exist in this game. This is not a competitive game anymore, it just a farming game. Proper ambush tactics are NOT "low skill". Low risk and high reward are spot on however. Would not take that much to make shocktrains balanced. My favorite idea is increasing the reload time to 12 seconds and increasing the "lock-on" time. Damage or range reductions could work too though. I dunno man, I'd hardly call 500m "ambushing". I agree with the rest tho. |
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Post by bronzeknee on Jan 19, 2018 16:24:25 GMT -5
Proper ambush tactics are NOT "low skill". Low risk and high reward are spot on however. Would not take that much to make shocktrains balanced. My favorite idea is increasing the reload time to 12 seconds and increasing the "lock-on" time. Damage or range reductions could work too though. I dunno man, I'd hardly call 500m "ambushing". I agree with the rest tho. Proper ambush tactics do take skill. The DB Griffin has a high skill ceiling. The Shocktrain doesn't, because it isn't an ambush weapon. |
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.So without any doubt st is op
