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Post by Dr. Yat on Jan 5, 2018 5:24:46 GMT -5
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Post by FlashAhAhh on Jan 5, 2018 5:51:58 GMT -5
Very, very interesting read and some good points!
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jan 5, 2018 5:59:26 GMT -5
Unless you are like me and like to switch up your hangar weekly. In this case you are far more likely to use the weapon again then the bot. In this case, weapons first makes a great deal of sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 6:29:40 GMT -5
With the current game and the speed at which you can raise up the leagues, I think it would be better to level up your weapons and turn yourself into a glass cannon. This would also encourage the player to play smart and not jump into the fray as quickly, building up tactical skill and timing. Once the player is pretty confident in their skill, then level up the bots.
Levelling up the bots would increase your HP meaning you'd dole out damage for a longer period, thus raising your ranking on the win lose table. Surely nothing worse than losing, coming in the no1 spot and moving up to harder opponents.
The counter point to either is the rapidity of new weapons / bots, making levelling anything up a near waste of time.
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Post by karlhungus on Jan 5, 2018 6:53:46 GMT -5
All spreadsheets, no grasp of reality.
Level orkans and tarrans first. You will use them and they're the safest weapons to invest resources in. Levelling griffins and Leo's (let alone natashas etc) is a complete waste of time. A mk2 orkan haechi kills anything in seconds, 30k extra HP will do jack 「dookie」, use some situational awareness and don't get hit.
I never even levelled my griffins, just the weapons and it was a great decision as now I haven't wasted all that time and silver on obsolete bots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 7:07:42 GMT -5
Dr. Yat, for once I disagree. Due to scaling costs per level, it is always best to keep bots/weapons at fairly even levels - assuming that both parts are viable in higher tiers.
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Post by sochilli (Saltesers) on Jan 5, 2018 7:16:36 GMT -5
With the current game and the speed at which you can raise up the leagues, I think it would be better to level up your weapons and turn yourself into a glass cannon. This would also encourage the player to play smart and not jump into the fray as quickly, building up tactical skill and timing. Once the player is pretty confident in their skill, then level up the bots. Levelling up the bots would increase your HP meaning you'd dole out damage for a longer period, thus raising your ranking on the win lose table. Surely nothing worse than losing, coming in the no1 spot and moving up to harder opponents. The counter point to either is the rapidity of new weapons / bots, making levelling anything up a near waste of time. can confirm, worked in the old meta and still works in this one. |
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Post by Koalabear on Jan 5, 2018 7:23:50 GMT -5
I think the article has some good points. I think his emphasis isn't upgrading robots before weapons when you first start the game, but after you reach Diamond with an average of level 8 equipment. I've noticed this trend in my own behaviour. Once I got all my equipment to level 8, the first thing I brought to level 9 was my Bulg, and the first thing I brought to level 12 was a Golem. Yes, I was influenced by posts here, and I wanted max speed for my Bulg, but my mental processes were focused on my bots rather than weapons. If I hadn't acquired new weapons like the Ember, Shocktrain and Tempest, I would have continued my upgrade trend and upgraded my Rogs and Hover to 9 before I tackled their weapons.
Basically, once you reach a certain level that you're comfortable with, it's not a bad idea to change your upgrade priorities around and focus on the bots instead of the weapons. Then, once you've got your bots to level 9, and if you're happy with the max speed and satisfied with the HP, then go back and do some weapons.
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Post by AVC on Jan 5, 2018 7:27:27 GMT -5
The main advantage to the robot upgrade is speed (well, to L9 anyway).
Mobility on the battle field is a key player. Levelling your bots to at least 9 has to be advantageous.
But lets run the numbers.
Let's put a Lev 9 Magnum Stalker Up against a Lev 9 Stalker (I,m using Mags as an example as they are constant fire, not burst)
Two L9 Mags will do 6160 DPS
The L9 Stalker has 75,000 HP
The Stalker lasts 12.17 seconds
Now we upgrade the Mags to 12 on one Stalker (at 8160 DPS) and we upgrade the other to L12 (90,000 HP)
The L12 Stalker will last only 11.02 seconds, in which time his L9 Mags will only dish out 67,883 damage to the L9 Stalker.
So the guy who upgraded his weps will be severely damaged, but the other guy is dead.
So while it may take less time to upgrade one bot instead of several weps, on a level for level basis, the weapons win.
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Post by seanh on Jan 5, 2018 7:28:45 GMT -5
I really hope all you Reds read this, I could really do with the Ag.
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Post by Dr. Yat on Jan 5, 2018 9:37:14 GMT -5
It's important to understand that no robot survives the Death Button from a Haechi or Griff. We aren't talking about head-to-head confrontations of firepower vs. health, and we CERTAINLY aren't talking about bringing your slow, unshielded Leo to the medium weapon party (if that were the point, we would have titled this post "Leo - the once and Future King!" ;-)). If you compare the COSTS of fully upgraded weapons with the COSTS of fully upgraded robots, you may see the point we are making. We are not arguing that the Griff survives the Orkan salvo. We are suggesting that it can survive long enough to do more damage for less cost than if you upgraded its weapons. Try one (I did a Lance AND ancile for my first two mark2 level 12s). You will like it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 10:54:56 GMT -5
Haechi:yes
Bulgasari, lance+ancile: depends on the league you are in, and the overall hangar level.
All the others: no.
What do these 3 have in common? They are are designed for close combat, they are meta, and they have a built in shield.
Base assumption is the will to win and to play competitive.
Just my opinion
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Post by krebby on Jan 5, 2018 11:05:50 GMT -5
The advice offered in this article is so dubious that I'm seriously considering writing an academic-style response. A response which uses real numbers and math, not cherry-picked anecdotes and banal statements masquerading as insight.
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Jan 5, 2018 11:32:35 GMT -5
From a purely economic standpoint, your claim holds its own. From a practical standpoint, you're giving terrible advice. The most simple way to put it? Take two Plasma Griffins, one with the bot at 8 and weapons at 12 and the other with the bot at 12 and weapons at 8. Nine out of ten pilots would rather have the 8/12 over the 12/8.
Additionally, as others pointed out - if you like switching up your hangar, bots first is a terrible idea.
It's also a terrible idea considering the structure of the game and the matchmaker. Having your bots at 12 before your weapons will cause you to rise in league to levels you don't belong in, all the while not doing damage at a quick pace or having meaningful impact on games. This means that you'll be in longer, drawn out matches, will accumulate Ag and Au pretty much as slowly as possible, all while climbing the league system.
Here's the one that'll really push your buttons. It's also a terrible idea for tankers. As a tanker, the only thing that matters is DPS. Survivability is crap, just deal as much damage as you can as quick as you can. Plain and simple.
Basically, no matter what playstyle or goals a player has, chances are most pilots fall in at least one of the categories above. Meaning most pilots are better off going weapons first.
So in conclusion, yes - leveling bots first will get you some shiny 12s in your hangar quicker. That's where the benefits end. Weapons leveling will exponentially help you in every aspect of the game. Not only will your DPS and earnings increase, but your lesser survivability will keep you lower in the league system for longer.
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Post by grendelsbot on Jan 5, 2018 11:43:01 GMT -5
It's stupid to say don't level your bots. To me they are both a priority. However don't level bots above level 9-10 if they aren't in your long term scheme of things. For instance why level a Stalker to level 12. No point. I would argue most hangars have at least one Griff. Therefore, while not a first priority, it certainly doesn't hurt to level to 12. Same for a Leo if that's your thing. Natty? Very close to the firepower of a Fury and levels much faster. So if you wanna snipe and don't have a Butch I would say level away your Natty so you can survive longer when that Rhino or Bulg rushes you.
Guess what can't survive a DB Haechi? Another DB Haechi if it get's inside the Ancile. So does this mean I should keep my Haechi at level 1? No of course not. I'm working on level 10 right now with it and will take it to level 12. Why? Because when I play it everyone is targeting it. So I need extra HP and the extra Ancile HP with each level.
Always get the bots you regularly play to 8 or 9 preferably to get the max speed. That level can be competitive when going against other bots at level 12.
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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Jan 5, 2018 11:43:33 GMT -5
Really glad I didn’t upgrade my pony old bots past lvl 9 - massive waste of resources. Trusty Taran and Orkan upgrades priority past lvl 9...as they seem to thrive in all meta eras
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Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on Jan 5, 2018 11:55:36 GMT -5
All spreadsheets, no grasp of reality. Level orkans and tarrans first. You will use them and they're the safest weapons to invest resources in. Levelling griffins and Leo's (let alone natashas etc) is a complete waste of time. A mk2 orkan haechi kills anything in seconds, 30k extra HP will do jack ?poo-poo?, use some situational awareness and don't get hit. I never even levelled my griffins, just the weapons and it was a great decision as now I haven't wasted all that time and silver on obsolete bots.  Did you really just say Griff is “obsolete”?  |
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Post by Cdr. Crimmins on Jan 5, 2018 11:59:48 GMT -5
Regardless of the merits of both sides of this discussion, I think the league system is a Skinner box and a fool's errand. Thus my current system of leveling up everything I have to six and no higher, leaving the higher gear wherever it happens to be.
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Post by creepshow on Jan 5, 2018 12:21:51 GMT -5
Regardless of the merits of both sides of this discussion, I think the league system is a Skinner box and a fool's errand. Thus my current system of leveling up everything I have to six and no higher, leaving the higher gear wherever it happens to be. I came to the same conclusion a few months ago, but I decided to cap all my stuff at 9 instead of 6, mostly because I enjoy my mechs more at top speed |
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Post by stokr on Jan 5, 2018 12:54:53 GMT -5
I dunno...lots of complaints about going down too fast and needing more durability, yet everyone sits around making glass cannons.
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Post by stokr on Jan 5, 2018 13:00:29 GMT -5
It's important to understand that no robot survives the Death Button from a Haechi or Griff. We aren't talking about head-to-head confrontations of firepower vs. health, and we CERTAINLY aren't talking about bringing your slow, unshielded Leo to the medium weapon party (if that were the point, we would have titled this post "Leo - the once and Future King!" ;-)). If you compare the COSTS of fully upgraded weapons with the COSTS of fully upgraded robots, you may see the point we are making. We are not arguing that the Griff survives the Orkan salvo. We are suggesting that it can survive long enough to do more damage for less cost than if you upgraded its weapons. Try one (I did a Lance AND ancile for my first two mark2 level 12s). You will like it! They're not interested in comparisons of time and cost. They prefer to compare unlimited weapon upgrade times and costs to limited bot upgrade times and costs. Sorry, but you're wasting your breath here. |
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Post by zer00eyz on Jan 5, 2018 13:04:08 GMT -5
The advice offered in this article is so dubious that I'm seriously considering writing an academic-style response. A response which uses real numbers and math, not cherry-picked anecdotes and banal statements masquerading as insight. This is really in response to OP, but I did the math, OP is wrong! Lets put down some actual math: A OotB (out of the box) Orkan does 970 damage per missile. An OotB Griffin has 110000 durability. It would take (110000/970) 114 Orkans to reduce that griffen to slag. Now lets do the same thing for a level 12: Orkan 1890, Griffin 158000 It would take (158000/1890) 84 Orkans to reduce the same Griffin to slag. Lets assume that we both follow standard advice and take our Griffins to 9 before we diverge. You spend 10 days taking your griffin to 12, and I spend that in upgrading my orkans leaving me with one at level 8 and one at level 9. To keep the math simple if we go head to head with just orkans, what does the fight look like? 124000/970 = 128 orkans for YOUR OotB orkans to kill my level 9 griff 158000/1300 = 122 orkans for your level 12 grif to be killed by level 8 orkans - never mind the fact that one of them is really level 9. |
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Post by ΒΣRΖΣRKΛ²³ on Jan 5, 2018 13:20:19 GMT -5
The advice offered in this article is so dubious that I'm seriously considering writing an academic-style response. A response which uses real numbers and math, not cherry-picked anecdotes and banal statements masquerading as insight. This is really in response to OP, but I did the math, OP is wrong! Lets put down some actual math: A OotB (out of the box) Orkan does 970 damage per missile. An OotB Griffin has 110000 durability. It would take (110000/970) 114 Orkans to reduce that griffen to slag. Now lets do the same thing for a level 12: Orkan 1890, Griffin 158000 It would take (158000/1890) 84 Orkans to reduce the same Griffin to slag. Lets assume that we both follow standard advice and take our Griffins to 9 before we diverge. You spend 10 days taking your griffin to 12, and I spend that in upgrading my orkans leaving me with one at level 8 and one at level 9. To keep the math simple if we go head to head with just orkans, what does the fight look like? 124000/970 = 128 orkans for YOUR OotB orkans to kill my level 9 griff 158000/1300 = 122 orkans for your level 12 grif to be killed by level 8 orkans - never mind the fact that one of them is really level 9. Myth busted! |
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Jan 5, 2018 13:29:57 GMT -5
The advice offered in this article is so dubious that I'm seriously considering writing an academic-style response. A response which uses real numbers and math, not cherry-picked anecdotes and banal statements masquerading as insight. This is really in response to OP, but I did the math, OP is wrong! Lets put down some actual math: A OotB (out of the box) Orkan does 970 damage per missile. An OotB Griffin has 110000 durability. It would take (110000/970) 114 Orkans to reduce that griffen to slag. Now lets do the same thing for a level 12: Orkan 1890, Griffin 158000 It would take (158000/1890) 84 Orkans to reduce the same Griffin to slag. Lets assume that we both follow standard advice and take our Griffins to 9 before we diverge. You spend 10 days taking your griffin to 12, and I spend that in upgrading my orkans leaving me with one at level 8 and one at level 9. To keep the math simple if we go head to head with just orkans, what does the fight look like? 124000/970 = 128 orkans for YOUR OotB orkans to kill my level 9 griff 158000/1300 = 122 orkans for your level 12 grif to be killed by level 8 orkans - never mind the fact that one of them is really level 9. You can always count on Rick to bring us the numbers. |
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Post by Dejnov on Jan 5, 2018 13:30:54 GMT -5
It's important to understand that no robot survives the Death Button from a Haechi or Griff. We aren't talking about head-to-head confrontations of firepower vs. health, and we CERTAINLY aren't talking about bringing your slow, unshielded Leo to the medium weapon party (if that were the point, we would have titled this post "Leo - the once and Future King!" ;-)). If you compare the COSTS of fully upgraded weapons with the COSTS of fully upgraded robots, you may see the point we are making. We are not arguing that the Griff survives the Orkan salvo. We are suggesting that it can survive long enough to do more damage for less cost than if you upgraded its weapons. Try one (I did a Lance AND ancile for my first two mark2 level 12s). You will like it!
Hey Dr. Yat,
I really liked your post and thought it was insightful. I too have thought that the need to constantly upgrade weapons far past bot levels to be misguided also. I do believe the only caveat your analysis needs is that you should focus for a non-obsolete platform/bot, but the same analogy can be made to weapons. Look at all the punishers/spirals/hydras/etc. that are being raised by players that aren't focusing on the top end meta weapons and I believe your point and statement are correct. In all ways (meta bots or meta weapons) the value of the bot should be a priority as opposed to the weapon.
Dejnov.
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Post by Dejnov on Jan 5, 2018 13:40:12 GMT -5
The advice offered in this article is so dubious that I'm seriously considering writing an academic-style response. A response which uses real numbers and math, not cherry-picked anecdotes and banal statements masquerading as insight. This is really in response to OP, but I did the math, OP is wrong! Lets put down some actual math: A OotB (out of the box) Orkan does 970 damage per missile. An OotB Griffin has 110000 durability. It would take (110000/970) 114 Orkans to reduce that griffen to slag. Now lets do the same thing for a level 12: Orkan 1890, Griffin 158000 It would take (158000/1890) 84 Orkans to reduce the same Griffin to slag. Lets assume that we both follow standard advice and take our Griffins to 9 before we diverge. You spend 10 days taking your griffin to 12, and I spend that in upgrading my orkans leaving me with one at level 8 and one at level 9. To keep the math simple if we go head to head with just orkans, what does the fight look like? 124000/970 = 128 orkans for YOUR OotB orkans to kill my level 9 griff 158000/1300 = 122 orkans for your level 12 grif to be killed by level 8 orkans - never mind the fact that one of them is really level 9.
This is faulty logic as you're not comparing it against a true apples to apples comparison. You need to understand that Dr. Yat isn't arguing about the damage output, but arguing about the Ag and time output. That level 12 griffin needs 122 orkan to take out.... how do you get 122 orkans to take him out in the same 5-6 second burst when each orkan holds only 32??? You can only do that by upgrading more than one orkan to level 12. That requires multiple orkan upgrades which is more time and more Ag than the single Griffin upgrade for the same survivability return.
Dejnov.
P.S. Also your OotB comparisons aren't valid. You need to do the comparison of a level 9 bot vs. level 9 weapon and then level 12 bot vs. level 9 weapons and finally level 9 bot vs. level 12 weapons to just get the damage correct. But even that isn't correct. You really need to do the calculation against a fixed Ag outlay (or upgrade time). You'll quickly note that the bot upgrade gets you best bang for a fixed Ag/time allotment from a time on battlefield and damage output standpoint.
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Post by krebby on Jan 5, 2018 13:41:51 GMT -5
It's important to understand that no robot survives the Death Button from a Haechi or Griff. We aren't talking about head-to-head confrontations of firepower vs. health, and we CERTAINLY aren't talking about bringing your slow, unshielded Leo to the medium weapon party (if that were the point, we would have titled this post "Leo - the once and Future King!" ;-)). If you compare the COSTS of fully upgraded weapons with the COSTS of fully upgraded robots, you may see the point we are making. We are not arguing that the Griff survives the Orkan salvo. We are suggesting that it can survive long enough to do more damage for less cost than if you upgraded its weapons. Try one (I did a Lance AND ancile for my first two mark2 level 12s). You will like it! I understand your claim—but you're still incorrect on the math and economics of efficient upgrading. I think I will write that academic-style response to explain why. I also think it will be more useful than exchanging short messages on the forums. Once I finish, you're more than welcome to post it on your blog. |
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Post by Deadeye on Jan 5, 2018 13:47:36 GMT -5
Dr. Yat I will also respectfully disagree in that in many situations, it is better to go weapons first. Though, I first want to say that the article and argument are well thought out and convincing. I do agree that in certain situations, this method may be advantageous.
However, from my experience coming up the ranks and in playing on my son's amazon account, weapons before bots allows you to be a more effective player, even if your bots are a bit more fragile. The argument about the weapons being transferable to other bots is a good one, but has been made already, so I will pass on restating in detail. There are 2 things that I see your argument does not take into account. The first is that of play style. A long or mid range fighter needs to be able to do more with less as his damage potential is less because he's sacrificed firepower for range. In this instance, his HP matter less because a certain segment of the battlefield cannot reach him by design. Additionally, if you squad with guys that have higher level gear, it is smart to play back behind your tougher allies so that you are a lower priority. In this instance, the more firepower you bring to the table, the faster your enemy will go down to your combined attack.
The second issue that was not addressed was that of terrain. You can often augment your defenses with proper use of cover (corner shooting, ledge cover, etc.) to make your HP last longer, but you certainly cannot use terrain to make your weapons stronger. In this way, weapons make more sense, though your are completely correct in that it takes FOREVER to move a Griffin/Fury load out up a level together.
Thank you for your article. It has made my decision on what to upgrade next more difficult (yet more thoughtful).  |
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Post by zer00eyz on Jan 5, 2018 15:07:10 GMT -5
This is really in response to OP, but I did the math, OP is wrong! Lets put down some actual math: A OotB (out of the box) Orkan does 970 damage per missile. An OotB Griffin has 110000 durability. It would take (110000/970) 114 Orkans to reduce that griffen to slag. Now lets do the same thing for a level 12: Orkan 1890, Griffin 158000 It would take (158000/1890) 84 Orkans to reduce the same Griffin to slag. Lets assume that we both follow standard advice and take our Griffins to 9 before we diverge. You spend 10 days taking your griffin to 12, and I spend that in upgrading my orkans leaving me with one at level 8 and one at level 9. To keep the math simple if we go head to head with just orkans, what does the fight look like? 124000/970 = 128 orkans for YOUR OotB orkans to kill my level 9 griff 158000/1300 = 122 orkans for your level 12 grif to be killed by level 8 orkans - never mind the fact that one of them is really level 9.
This is faulty logic as you're not comparing it against a true apples to apples comparison. You need to understand that Dr. Yat isn't arguing about the damage output, but arguing about the Ag and time output. That level 12 griffin needs 122 orkan to take out.... how do you get 122 orkans to take him out in the same 5-6 second burst when each orkan holds only 32??? You can only do that by upgrading more than one orkan to level 12. That requires multiple orkan upgrades which is more time and more Ag than the single Griffin upgrade for the same survivability return.
Dejnov.
P.S. Also your OotB comparisons aren't valid. You need to do the comparison of a level 9 bot vs. level 9 weapon and then level 12 bot vs. level 9 weapons and finally level 9 bot vs. level 12 weapons to just get the damage correct. But even that isn't correct. You really need to do the calculation against a fixed Ag outlay (or upgrade time). You'll quickly note that the bot upgrade gets you best bang for a fixed Ag/time allotment from a time on battlefield and damage output standpoint.
How do you get 122 orkans? You hold down the fire button. If you go do the math, as I did you will see that at the point where we diverge from standard advice (level 9) I upgrade orkans and he upgrade bots, I end up with the superior investment for a given time period (It is actually better than I suggest, because one of my orkans is level 9). If there is some other math that you want to see done, DO IT to prove your point don't just talk about it. |
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Post by Pilot sand735 on Jan 5, 2018 15:12:06 GMT -5
upgrade weapons first
cant say when the bot will become useless like galahad
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