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Post by vin5240 on Nov 27, 2017 10:19:13 GMT -5
I was curious at what range can scourges out damage the zeus? I tried using zeus/scourge lancelot and the damage from long range isn't as satisfactory as two zeus on a carnage, and if I get close to get more damage out of the scourge, my shield just gets teared apart by tarans and end up dying. Thinking of going back to the regular ancilot setup with tarans. Am I doing something wrong or should I go back to taran setup to get the most out of the lancelot? I just got one not too long ago from saving up gold for a long time but it is lvl.9.
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Post by Ⓑⓞⓑ Ⓓⓨⓛⓐⓝ on Nov 27, 2017 10:21:45 GMT -5
If you're looking for pure effectiveness, then yeah, ancile/taran is likely the best balanced option.
Ember/Taran or Thunder/Orkan for damage
I've seen ranged options look alright like tempest molot etc, but Lance is best used as a beacon pusher and a bot your team can rally beside to secure parts of a map.
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Post by Maximus on Nov 27, 2017 11:40:35 GMT -5
I like using the scourge-zeus-lance (SZL) for a change of pace from my zeus Fury or taran lance. I've found that the SZL is best at 500-600m, since it's out of RDB range, and it's shield really helps against other zeus/scourge/treb/gekko snipers. However, in a pinch it can be run like a brawler thanks to the increased range dmg from the scourges.
It doesn't output as much damage as a zeus Fury at 600m or a tarancilot at 350m, but it can do both roles with reasonable success.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 27, 2017 11:49:51 GMT -5
If you're looking for pure effectiveness, then yeah, ancile/taran is likely the best balanced option. Ember/Taran or Thunder/Orkan for damage I've seen ranged options look alright like tempest molot etc, but Lance is best used as a beacon pusher and a bot your team can rally beside to secure parts of a map. Ember Orkan can work too, because you have to lead you shots and hit your enemies behind corners as well. Tempest Punishers is better than Tempest Molot.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 27, 2017 11:57:29 GMT -5
I was curious at what range can scourges out damage the zeus? I tried using zeus/scourge lancelot and the damage from long range isn't as satisfactory as two zeus on a carnage, and if I get close to get more damage out of the scourge, my shield just gets teared apart by tarans and end up dying. Thinking of going back to the regular ancilot setup with tarans. Am I doing something wrong or should I go back to taran setup to get the most out of the lancelot? I just got one not too long ago from saving up gold for a long time but it is lvl.9. The Zeus has an all around DPS of 2737, while the Scourge has a 2400 DPS at 600m. The Scourge out-damages the Zeus as soon as you hit ~560m but never does more damage than a Taran, no matter how close you are. Keep in mind though, that the Zeus is a burst weapon and the Scourge is a DPS weapon, meaning that you have to expose yourself a longer period of time to effectively do damage with the Scourge, while the Zeus only needs you to step out, fire, and go back to cover. Also, remember that the Scourge can fire for a longer period than Tarans.
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Post by vin5240 on Nov 27, 2017 12:05:07 GMT -5
I was curious at what range can scourges out damage the zeus? I tried using zeus/scourge lancelot and the damage from long range isn't as satisfactory as two zeus on a carnage, and if I get close to get more damage out of the scourge, my shield just gets teared apart by tarans and end up dying. Thinking of going back to the regular ancilot setup with tarans. Am I doing something wrong or should I go back to taran setup to get the most out of the lancelot? I just got one not too long ago from saving up gold for a long time but it is lvl.9. The Zeus has an all around DPS of 2737, while the Scourge has a 2400 DPS at 600m. The Scourge out-damages the Zeus as soon as you hit ~560m but never does more damage than a Taran, no matter how close you are. Keep in mind though, that the Zeus is a burst weapon and the Scourge is a DPS weapon, meaning that you have to expose yourself a longer period of time to effectively do damage with the Scourge, while the Zeus only needs you to step out, fire, and go back to cover. Also, remember that the Scourge can fire for a longer period than Tarans. Thank you for your input. The problem with zeus/scourge lancelot is I all of a sudden have a bunch of RDB's targetting me now because I don't have the shield so I'll probably go for the ancile/taran setup and just bring a zeus carnage along if I need range.
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Post by Maximus on Nov 27, 2017 12:09:49 GMT -5
The Zeus has an all around DPS of 2737, while the Scourge has a 2400 DPS at 600m. The Scourge out-damages the Zeus as soon as you hit ~560m but never does more damage than a Taran, no matter how close you are. Keep in mind though, that the Zeus is a burst weapon and the Scourge is a DPS weapon, meaning that you have to expose yourself a longer period of time to effectively do damage with the Scourge, while the Zeus only needs you to step out, fire, and go back to cover. Also, remember that the Scourge can fire for a longer period than Tarans. Thank you for your input. The problem with zeus/scourge lancelot is I all of a sudden have a bunch of RDB's targetting me now because I don't have the shield so I'll probably go for the ancile/taran setup and just bring a zeus carnage along if I need range. If you have a tempest try that with 2 molot T's. It's my favorite combo for mid-range Lance. You can even annoy snipers at 800m if you feel the urge. ?
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 27, 2017 12:14:44 GMT -5
The Zeus has an all around DPS of 2737, while the Scourge has a 2400 DPS at 600m. The Scourge out-damages the Zeus as soon as you hit ~560m but never does more damage than a Taran, no matter how close you are. Keep in mind though, that the Zeus is a burst weapon and the Scourge is a DPS weapon, meaning that you have to expose yourself a longer period of time to effectively do damage with the Scourge, while the Zeus only needs you to step out, fire, and go back to cover. Also, remember that the Scourge can fire for a longer period than Tarans. Thank you for your input. The problem with zeus/scourge lancelot is I all of a sudden have a bunch of RDB's targetting me now because I don't have the shield so I'll probably go for the ancile/taran setup and just bring a zeus carnage along if I need range. Stay 540m away from them, have your Rush ready, and keep a close eye on the RDB's. As soon as you see them Jump, Rush backwards.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 12:18:05 GMT -5
I was curious at what range can scourges out damage the zeus? I tried using zeus/scourge lancelot and the damage from long range isn't as satisfactory as two zeus on a carnage, and if I get close to get more damage out of the scourge, my shield just gets teared apart by tarans and end up dying. Thinking of going back to the regular ancilot setup with tarans. Am I doing something wrong or should I go back to taran setup to get the most out of the lancelot? I just got one not too long ago from saving up gold for a long time but it is lvl.9. I think scourge-zeus is a lousy combo b/c scourge is a sustained damage weapon that requires a consistent lock that takes 3 seconds to reacquire whereas Zeus is a sniper weapon, best used by a bot that moves in and out of cover. Zeus-Gekko is much stronger combo. If you have 2 zeus, I'd put them on a carnage. Hands down. Sounds like you have an ancile. Why not try scourge on an ancilot as sort of an outside of 350' / inside of 100' in certain situations alternative to tarancilot or with tempest, which is also a sustained damage weapon. The variance of range/damage type and firing time is actually a benefit. It's a little slower than taran but still a high sustained dam weapon so a good fit for ancilot and is scheduled for a 5% buff.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 27, 2017 12:43:56 GMT -5
I think scourge-zeus is a lousy combo b/c scourge is a sustained damage weapon...
...Zeus- Gekko is much stronger combo. Are you ok? On a serious note, are you ok?
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 13:44:22 GMT -5
I think scourge-zeus is a lousy combo b/c scourge is a sustained damage weapon...
...Zeus- Gekko is much stronger combo. Are you ok? On a serious note, are you ok? Yes, b/c I have looked at the data. At 600M, lvl 8 gekko does around 2080 dps vs around 700 for a scourge of same level. Timing of attack more closely matches timing for firing of Zeus. So as a point of comparison, a Leo running 3 lvl 8 gekko with 2 sec gekko burst will go for 6k damage + zeus hit then step back into cover where as a lance would only step out and deliver 1.6 from a scourge (assuming you have a lock and don't have to wait 3-seconds). Scourge would be better for stepping out and delivering sustained damage for an extended period of time but if you are doing that, you are using your Zeus wrong.
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Post by hon_shu on Nov 27, 2017 13:54:54 GMT -5
I think scourge-zeus is a lousy combo b/c scourge is a sustained damage weapon...
...Zeus- Gekko is much stronger combo. Are you ok? On a serious note, are you ok? Zeus/Gekko is a powerful combination. Well, obviously not as powerful as a Taran/Magnum, but that's a different story and it can hold its own against most ranged bot pretty well. I used to run a Zeus/Gekko Leo for a while, and I really like being able to stay outside of 600m if necessary, then step in and bring the Zeus to the party. The timing of the Gekkos pairs nicely with the Zeus IMO, ideally you can unload two Zeus bursts and unload your Gekkos in between. That having said, I run a Zeus Carnage now
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 13:57:03 GMT -5
Are you ok? On a serious note, are you ok? Zeus/Gekko is a powerful combination. Well, obviously not as powerful as a Taran/Magnum, but that's a different story and it can hold its own against most ranged bot pretty well. I used to run a Zeus/Gekko Leo for a while, and I really like being able to stay outside of 600m if necessary, then step in and bring the Zeus to the party. The timing of the Gekkos pairs nicely with the Zeus IMO, ideally you can unload two Zeus bursts and unload your Gekkos in between. That having said, I run a Zeus Carnage now Zeus carnage is a beast. I run a tempest carnage and the Zeus build is one of 2-3 non-dash bots that will usually end TC's day in a hurry if they get a good position.
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Post by F-A-H-Q on Nov 27, 2017 14:01:34 GMT -5
I love seeing this combo on a lance. Its free damage. There is not enough damage output to not get close with orks, tarans, or even using a zeus fury to break the shield and melt the bot. As stated, this load out is not what a lance was made for. You will get destroyed so fast on a short map as well. Zeus is by far the best when in pairs or triads So are scourge (I still do not like these and am contemplating selling my maxed mk1 scourges)
The real issue is to succeed in using this load out, you basically can not engage in team play (beacons and pressure on advancing towards a win)
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 27, 2017 14:17:49 GMT -5
Are you ok? On a serious note, are you ok? Yes, b/c I have looked at the data. At 600M, lvl 8 gekko does around 2080 dps vs around 700 for a scourge of same level. Timing of attack more closely matches timing for firing of Zeus. So as a point of comparison, a Leo running 3 lvl 8 gekko with 2 sec gekko burst will go for 6k damage + zeus hit then step back into cover where as a lance would only step out and deliver 1.6 from a scourge (assuming you have a lock and don't have to wait 3-seconds). Scourge would be better for stepping out and delivering sustained damage for an extended period of time but if you are doing that, you are using your Zeus wrong. Scourge has a DPS of 2400 at 600m while the Gekko has 950 (if both were level 12). Scourge is better coupled with Zeus, not Gekko.
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Post by vin5240 on Nov 27, 2017 14:18:59 GMT -5
Are you ok? On a serious note, are you ok? Zeus/Gekko is a powerful combination. Well, obviously not as powerful as a Taran/Magnum, but that's a different story and it can hold its own against most ranged bot pretty well. I used to run a Zeus/Gekko Leo for a while, and I really like being able to stay outside of 600m if necessary, then step in and bring the Zeus to the party. The timing of the Gekkos pairs nicely with the Zeus IMO, ideally you can unload two Zeus bursts and unload your Gekkos in between. That having said, I run a Zeus Carnage now Do you like zeus/gekko natasha or zeus carnage? I ran both, but I chose mobility over extra damage from gekkos.
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Post by hon_shu on Nov 27, 2017 14:56:33 GMT -5
Zeus/Gekko is a powerful combination. Well, obviously not as powerful as a Taran/Magnum, but that's a different story and it can hold its own against most ranged bot pretty well. I used to run a Zeus/Gekko Leo for a while, and I really like being able to stay outside of 600m if necessary, then step in and bring the Zeus to the party. The timing of the Gekkos pairs nicely with the Zeus IMO, ideally you can unload two Zeus bursts and unload your Gekkos in between. That having said, I run a Zeus Carnage now Do you like zeus/gekko natasha or zeus carnage? I ran both, but I chose mobility over extra damage from gekkos. I never played a Natasha really. I certainly like the mobility of the Carnage (and the shield), so Zeus Carnage works as a beacon capper, and it can do at least a little damage when forced into a close-range fight. It can be a good bot to be in last when it comes down to 2-2 or similar. I'm not really a camper guy, and the mobility helps getting better angles on the reds, it could even make up for the reduced fire power because you're able to hit a lot more often.
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Post by hon_shu on Nov 27, 2017 15:00:18 GMT -5
Zeus/Gekko is a powerful combination. Well, obviously not as powerful as a Taran/Magnum, but that's a different story and it can hold its own against most ranged bot pretty well. I used to run a Zeus/Gekko Leo for a while, and I really like being able to stay outside of 600m if necessary, then step in and bring the Zeus to the party. The timing of the Gekkos pairs nicely with the Zeus IMO, ideally you can unload two Zeus bursts and unload your Gekkos in between. That having said, I run a Zeus Carnage now Zeus carnage is a beast. I run a tempest carnage and the Zeus build is one of 2-3 non-dash bots that will usually end TC's day in a hurry if they get a good position. I'm torn between Zeus Carnage and Zeus Tempest. I have Zeuses levelled to 10, and only one Tempest at the moment. So it's totally unreasonable to get two Tempests up as well, but I really like the sound of the Tempest and the added flexibility (600+ meters, more damage up close). Maybe I'll move the Zeuses over to my long-range hangar
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 15:07:49 GMT -5
Zeus carnage is a beast. I run a tempest carnage and the Zeus build is one of 2-3 non-dash bots that will usually end TC's day in a hurry if they get a good position. I'm torn between Zeus Carnage and Zeus Tempest. I have Zeuses levelled to 10, and only one Tempest at the moment. So it's totally unreasonable to get two Tempests up as well, but I really like the sound of the Tempest and the added flexibility (600+ meters, more damage up close). Maybe I'll move the Zeuses over to my long-range hangar For 1 tempest, tempest punisher leo, tempest PunT lance, tempest gekko leo are all good builds for mid-to-long range.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 15:11:00 GMT -5
I love seeing this combo on a lance. Its free damage. There is not enough damage output to not get close with orks, tarans, or even using a zeus fury to break the shield and melt the bot. As stated, this load out is not what a lance was made for. You will get destroyed so fast on a short map as well. Zeus is by far the best when in pairs or triads So are scourge (I still do not like these and am contemplating selling my maxed mk1 scourges) The real issue is to succeed in using this load out, you basically can not engage in team play (beacons and pressure on advancing towards a win) I agreed with everything you said except selling scourges. For what. silver? Crazy. They are getting buffed in next release. You never know what Pixo is going to do with their meta, so I would never sell gold or wsp or component weapons.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 15:13:05 GMT -5
Yes, b/c I have looked at the data. At 600M, lvl 8 gekko does around 2080 dps vs around 700 for a scourge of same level. Timing of attack more closely matches timing for firing of Zeus. So as a point of comparison, a Leo running 3 lvl 8 gekko with 2 sec gekko burst will go for 6k damage + zeus hit then step back into cover where as a lance would only step out and deliver 1.6 from a scourge (assuming you have a lock and don't have to wait 3-seconds). Scourge would be better for stepping out and delivering sustained damage for an extended period of time but if you are doing that, you are using your Zeus wrong. Scourge has a DPS of 2400 at 600m while the Gekko has 950 (if both were level 12). Scourge is better coupled with Zeus, not You are posting cycle damage, not burst damage. That data is fully consistent with what I say in my second statement "Scourge would be better for stepping out and delivering sustained damage for an extended period of time", but in order to hit the DPS you 'd be using your Zeus wrong -- ie not as a sniper weapon moving in and out of cover -- which is why people are saying things like "I love seeing that on a lance" (b/c it is a lousy build). If you time your attack to the timing of the zeus you will better understand why gekko is better. Step out of cover, deliver a short burst, step into cover. Every 5 seconds. That is not how scourge is intended to be used but it works well for Gekkos and is the best use for the Zeus, which is your primary weapon system.
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Post by frunobulax on Nov 27, 2017 15:19:14 GMT -5
I was curious at what range can scourges out damage the zeus? The Zeus has an all around DPS of 2737, while the Scourge has a 2400 DPS at 600m. That's not quite true. Scourge has 2400 DPS while firing, and 1600 cycle DPS. So Zeus has more than 50% more cycle damage. Moreover, you can hit targets with Zeus that are exposed for just a second or two, while you will get in very few damage with the Scourge if the target moves from cover to cover. Frankly, from 450m or more the Zeus is the far superior weapon, and I'd take a 2-Zeus build (Carnage/Natty) over a 3-Scourge build (say Scourge Fujin, as Dashes are obviously not comparable to a Carnage) any day. However, the big advantage of the Scourge is that it will do much more damage from up close, and if you can't avoid closing within firing range of your target (say 300m), you have the option to come much closer and do more damage.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 27, 2017 15:25:06 GMT -5
The Zeus has an all around DPS of 2737, while the Scourge has a 2400 DPS at 600m. That's not quite true. Scourge has 2400 DPS while firing, and 1600 cycle DPS. So Zeus has more than 50% more cycle damage. Moreover, you can hit targets with Zeus that are exposed for just a second or two, while you will get in very few damage with the Scourge if the target moves from cover to cover. Frankly, from 450m or more the Zeus is the far superior weapon, and I'd take a 2-Zeus build (Carnage/Natty) over a 3-Scourge build (say Scourge Fujin, as Dashes are obviously not comparable to a Carnage) any day. However, the big advantage of the Scourge is that it will do much more damage from up close, and if you can't avoid closing within firing range of your target (say 300m), you have the option to come much closer and do more damage. Cycle damage comparison between sniper weapons and sustained damage weapons is not valid unless the person using sniper is a bad pilot. Sustained damage weapons require the bot to be far more exposed in order to deliver their full load.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 28, 2017 2:30:24 GMT -5
Scourge has a DPS of 2400 at 600m while the Gekko has 950 (if both were level 12). Scourge is better coupled with Zeus, not You are posting cycle damage, not burst damage. That data is fully consistent with what I say in my second statement "Scourge would be better for stepping out and delivering sustained damage for an extended period of time", but in order to hit the DPS you 'd be using your Zeus wrong -- ie not as a sniper weapon moving in and out of cover -- which is why people are saying things like "I love seeing that on a lance" (b/c it is a lousy build). If you time your attack to the timing of the zeus you will better understand why gekko is better. Step out of cover, deliver a short burst, step into cover. Every 5 seconds. That is not how scourge is intended to be used but it works well for Gekkos and is the best use for the Zeus, which is your primary weapon system. If you stand at 550m then you do more damage with the Scourge than you do with the Gekko in 5 seconds.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 28, 2017 2:31:57 GMT -5
That's not quite true. Scourge has 2400 DPS while firing, and 1600 cycle DPS. So Zeus has more than 50% more cycle damage. Moreover, you can hit targets with Zeus that are exposed for just a second or two, while you will get in very few damage with the Scourge if the target moves from cover to cover. Frankly, from 450m or more the Zeus is the far superior weapon, and I'd take a 2-Zeus build (Carnage/Natty) over a 3-Scourge build (say Scourge Fujin, as Dashes are obviously not comparable to a Carnage) any day. However, the big advantage of the Scourge is that it will do much more damage from up close, and if you can't avoid closing within firing range of your target (say 300m), you have the option to come much closer and do more damage. Cycle damage comparison between sniper weapons and sustained damage weapons is not valid unless the person using sniper is a bad pilot. Sustained damage weapons require the bot to be far more exposed in order to deliver their full load. I love how you keep on calling the Zeus a "sniper weapon" even though it's maximum range is 600m.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Nov 28, 2017 3:57:37 GMT -5
Per my one experience during battle. I think its sub 300m when they start leveling off. I was running towards a carnage from just below 600m in a rogatka. Carnage probably thought I was on a suicide mission. It had just a sliver of hp taken off. Rog was full health. By the time I got to just in front of him, I still had around 1/5 life and he was down to a sliver. Then I got fragged by another red. My rog was lv9 with lv7 scourges in gold 3 so Im assuming he was in the same ball park since there was an abundance of zarnages in that game.
For them to even intersect a line where 2 scourges can out race 2 zeuses. They must be pretty powerful up close. Dont have any numbers, but id be interested as well to see the data.
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Post by frunobulax on Nov 28, 2017 9:51:41 GMT -5
According to Pixos website, the point blank damage is comparable to a Taran.
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Post by Jame-thon on Nov 28, 2017 10:18:13 GMT -5
To the OP, I would recommend putting your Lance back to an ancilot. Nothing better than having a solid tanking bot to go cap beacons or hold beacons depending on game mode. While the scourge setup is okay on the lance, there are many problems like what you mentioned with taking rocket damage and being a slow moving bot with no energy shield. I find the scourge setups thrive on the haechi/bulgasari of course, but if you don't have one of those then I'd recommend using the zeus setups. Now depending on your hanger and what combination of speed and power, and with no background info on that, I would personally go for the gecko/zeus natasha. I played the carnage zeus a lot when I was moving through leagues but with the introduction of several mid range weapons(shocktrain, scourges, different combinations of those weapons/bots), even the kinetic bullet based weapons buff and the dash bots meta, i find this setup less efficient as it once was. The mobility is nice but I just find him too fragile to make an impact for all those different reasons. I still find the gecko one of the most annoying and effective long range weapons and even with two you can chase any sniper bot into hiding while gaining ground to get in range of your zeus. And with the zeus you can make those dash bots duck for cover for sure. Just my 0.02 on this, GL to you.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 28, 2017 10:49:29 GMT -5
To the OP, I would recommend putting your Lance back to an ancilot. Nothing better than having a solid tanking bot to go cap beacons or hold beacons depending on game mode. While the scourge setup is okay on the lance, there are many problems like what you mentioned with taking rocket damage and being a slow moving bot with no energy shield. I find the scourge setups thrive on the haechi/bulgasari of course, but if you don't have one of those then I'd recommend using the zeus setups. Now depending on your hanger and what combination of speed and power, and with no background info on that, I would personally go for the gecko/zeus natasha. I played the carnage zeus a lot when I was moving through leagues but with the introduction of several mid range weapons(shocktrain, scourges, different combinations of those weapons/bots), even the kinetic bullet based weapons buff and the dash bots meta, i find this setup less efficient as it once was. The mobility is nice but I just find him too fragile to make an impact for all those different reasons. I still find the gecko one of the most annoying and effective long range weapons and even with two you can chase any sniper bot into hiding while gaining ground to get in range of your zeus. And with the zeus you can make those dash bots duck for cover for sure. Just my 0.02 on this, GL to you. Scourge Ancilot works about as well as a tarancilot.
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Post by Jame-thon on Nov 28, 2017 11:12:46 GMT -5
To the OP, I would recommend putting your Lance back to an ancilot. Nothing better than having a solid tanking bot to go cap beacons or hold beacons depending on game mode. While the scourge setup is okay on the lance, there are many problems like what you mentioned with taking rocket damage and being a slow moving bot with no energy shield. I find the scourge setups thrive on the haechi/bulgasari of course, but if you don't have one of those then I'd recommend using the zeus setups. Now depending on your hanger and what combination of speed and power, and with no background info on that, I would personally go for the gecko/zeus natasha. I played the carnage zeus a lot when I was moving through leagues but with the introduction of several mid range weapons(shocktrain, scourges, different combinations of those weapons/bots), even the kinetic bullet based weapons buff and the dash bots meta, i find this setup less efficient as it once was. The mobility is nice but I just find him too fragile to make an impact for all those different reasons. I still find the gecko one of the most annoying and effective long range weapons and even with two you can chase any sniper bot into hiding while gaining ground to get in range of your zeus. And with the zeus you can make those dash bots duck for cover for sure. Just my 0.02 on this, GL to you. Scourge Ancilot works about as well as a tarancilot. I mentioned that in my opinion it's okay on the lance. I never said it wouldn't work. But my personal opinion is it's not as effective as what an ancilot would do at his range and contribute to a match. However the OP mentioned he's having difficulty with that setup so it may be his type of playstyle. And based off of everything I've read and heard from his comments, I do find that this may work better for him as ancilot still works very well , he seems to have more success with it and he can try to maximize the usage of scourge elsewhere.
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