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Post by bronzeknee on Nov 6, 2017 13:27:06 GMT -5
What is Pay to Win?
Pay to win shouldn't be taken literally. Money isn't spent to buy wins, rather it is spent to get a competitive advantage that increases the chance of winning. If pay to win were applied to Chess, it might mean being able to pay to replace a Rook with a Queen. Doing so wouldn't guarantee a win, a skilled played could still defeat an unskilled player that starts with an extra Queen, but it increases the chances the unskilled player wins. Paying to win in War Robots means paying for content (Shocktrain, Dash Robots, ect) that gives a competitive advantage over free content. Therefore, a game becomes a pay to win not when you can buy content, but when buying content offers a competitive advantage. And Pixonic openly admits it does, stating the Haechi is "the best of the best." But how should Pixonic make money? People don't play games forever...
One of the primary arguments we see defending Pixonic on this forum is that Pixonic needs to make the game pay to win to "keep the lights on" and that games have a lifespan, so Pixonic needs to cash in now. This argument has been pedaled by moderators, "trusted contributors," and long terms members. And it's complete garbage. The argument shows a narrow focus that ignores the history of gaming and lack of understanding of both games and human behavior in general. The League of Legends world championship, Worlds 2017, finished two days ago. Riot filled an arena and the best teams in the world battled for millions of dollars. Last years Worlds was watched by 43 million people worldwide. This year, I was one of them, watching as Samsung Galaxy led by Ruler defeated SK Telecom and the best player in League history, Faker. It was sensational. A free to play game released in 2009 that offers no competitive advantage for buying content, makes billions of dollars a year and created this storybook ending: That is what I want for War Robots. So how did League of Legends make a billion dollars a year as a free to play game and spawn an E-Sport? By being a good game. It is entirely skill and teamwork based, and no matter how much money you spend, you'll never have a competitive advantage. Ever. People don't just want to play good games, they want to watch them. And sponsors pay big money to reach males 18-34, and that is the primary audience of League. Sponsorships and a huge player base due to it being a good game is how League makes more money than any other video game. Can you imagine crowds like that, tens of thousands of screaming fans watching people play against each other in War Robots?
And people do play good games for forever. Chess is still played today because it is a good game... and I can hear it now "but Chess isn't a video game!" But Starcraft Broodwar is, and it's from 1998. The Afreeca Starleague Season 4 is ending on November 10th, 2017, with Flash and herO battling for an $87,650 prizepool. Broodwar has had competitive tournaments for more than half of my life. Hundreds of thousands of people will watch the finals worldwide, generating huge profits from sponsors. And tens of thousands of people still play Broodwar regularly. Because like Chess it is a good game. Good Games last forever. The Extra Queen
League, Chess and Starcraft are great games because there is balance in game design, which is necessary for one of the key areas of game design to shine: counterplay. It has been a false belief among many on this forum that availability is the problem with the new content, that players are complaining because they don't have access to the new strong content (ie they won't pay for it). But cost was the never the problem, the problem was always balance. It could be argued that if everyone did have the same access to the new content in War Robots then there wouldn't be balance concerns because everyone could just run the new content. And then the new content would make nearly everything else obsolete. But wouldn't that be the same as allowing rock to beat both paper and scissors in Rock-Paper-Scissors? Surely, it wouldn't be a good game then, everyone would throw rock and we'd have no way of deciding who is going to change the diaper or where we are going out to eat. And no one would play it. It'd lack counterplay, and counterplay is a requirement in good game design. An extra Queen, even if given to both sides in Chess, would ruin the balance of Chess and degrade it because it would reduce the amount of counterplay opportunities in the game. And the more Queens you add to the game, the less skillful and trivial Chess becomes. Pixonic is adding Queens to War Robots. Each new piece of content they add outperforms the last severely. And we have reached the point where this new content must be increasingly skilless to use in order to be more powerful than existing content. And so we have the Shocktrain. It deals damage instantly leaving no room for reaction, and can spread to multiple players. Its existence increasingly limits opportunities for counterplay and real shows of skill in War Robots. And just like Rock-Paper-Scissors without counterplay, War Robots without counterplay is not a good game. So people aren't going to play or watch it. That explains the sad exodus of players from War Robots. Counterplay isn't just what League of Legends is built on, it is what all good games are built on. And Pixonic is failing to provide it. It was never about cost
Dredd alluded to this in his article, Pixonic and the $300 Bot, stating "as long as they don't break the balance of the game, rare and exclusive bots are not the problem" and he is absolutely right. Pixonic could make a thousand dollar robot and as long as it is essentially an even fight to the other robots in the game, it is fine. But if that thousand dollar robot was easy acquire for free or offered no competitive advantage, who would buy that robot? Probably no one. So it goes without saying then that the only way for Pixonic to justify the sky high price tags for new content is to make the new content both incredibly strong and incredibly difficult to acquire. If either of those things weren't true, people wouldn't be willing to shell out big bucks, they'd either use cheaper alternatives or grind the content for free. But Pixonic doesn't seem interested in balancing War Robots. The Ember and Shocktrain are literally game breaking in terms of balance. The Dash Robots and Inquisitor are clearly overpowered. Thus, everything that is really strong in the game is also very difficult to acquire, justifying the massive price tags. So here we are, clearly in pay to win territory, as the competitive advantage of the new content is undeniable. This again explains why League of Legends doesn't have expensive transactions. As a game that isn't pay to win, Riot understands how ridiculous it would be to overprice new content. No one would buy it unless it offered people some kind of advantage. I've played Karthus since the beginning in League, and while I don't play League much anymore, I know that anytime I can step back into the game and Karthus will be relevant in the game and balanced against whatever else I face, just as nearly every champion in the game is. You can't say the same for War Robots. The Rhino that was the meta robot just a short time ago, isn't viable anymore. There is no play or counterplay that allows any kind Rhino to defeat an Orkan Haechi (save the Orkan Haechi making huge mistakes). But there is play and counterplay that allows Karthus to be viable against nearly every champion. Play and counterplay is what make games great. The lack of it in War Robots shows we've lost the meta, which is the heart of any game. There is no the meta
A sad consequence of War Robots becoming a pay to win game is that player involvement in developing the meta is non-existent. Many of the most impressive moments in Starcraft history came when a player reinvented the meta by developing a unique new strategy, often in a highstakes tournament. The following days on the ladder, players of all skill levels would try to emulate the new strategy, and overtime it would be refined and remain dominant until it was "figured out" and then other new strategies (or sometimes old ones would come back) would be developed and take over. The meta is almost completely out of the control of Blizzard, left entirely to the players. What drove the meta was player creativity and what made the game exciting is anyone can reinvent the meta at any time. And that can only happen if there is no way to pay to gain a competitive advantage. But Pixonic has created a game where the meta is governed not by player skill, but by expensive new content that outperforms anything released previously, ensuring that the new releases become the meta. Thus, it is no longer a game of skill, there is no strategy to discuss and speak of. War Robots is a sad shell of a game where the meta is driven by cash, not creativity. That makes it destined to fail; War Robots will never be as successful as League of Legends in game design quality or profits because it offers players a way to pay for a competitive advantage.
War Robots is the definition of a pay to win game.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 13:44:39 GMT -5
You make some good points and seem genuinely concerned about the health of the game. Have you tried reaching out to Pix with some of your thoughts? There are people here that likely can assist you in making contact, assuming you have not burnt any bridges with them.
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Nov 6, 2017 13:48:20 GMT -5
Excellent post and very well said. Watching great War Robots matches back in the day was actually extremely entertaining. It would be awesome if they added a feature to watch replays or live games in the point of view you get after you mech out.
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Post by GuitarGuy on Nov 6, 2017 13:51:11 GMT -5
Agreed with Panda. A well Written and thought provoking piece. We arent Pixonic though and they need to be aware of your views too. I would highly recommend reaching out to them.
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Post by Domino on Nov 6, 2017 13:52:10 GMT -5
You make some good points and seem genuinely concerned about the health of the game. Have you tried reaching out to Pix with some of your thoughts? There are people here that likely assist you in making contact, assuming you have not burnt any bridges with them. Apparently this is a vocal minority according to Pixonic. People who feed on the F2P don't want anyone to say the truth and have their competitive edge taken away. So they say things like bronzeknee has mentioned and then some. Unless everyone wants a game only filled with Haechi. Everyone needs to be vocal. It's going to take some serious nerfing to bring this back to a normal playing field, and this needs to happen quickly. All the Expert/Master/Champion leaguers who don't have a full hangar of Haechi/MK2 will be left for food for the high rollers. Alot of lvl 9/10/11/12 F2P hangers are playing in Gold/Diamond. Things will escalate and rot the game to the core (if it hasn't already)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 13:59:54 GMT -5
You make some good points and seem genuinely concerned about the health of the game. Have you tried reaching out to Pix with some of your thoughts? There are people here that likely assist you in making contact, assuming you have not burnt any bridges with them. Apparently this is a vocal minority according to Pixonic. People who feed on the F2P don't want anyone to say the truth and have their competitive edge taken away. So they say things like bronzeknee has mentioned and then some. Unless everyone wants a game only filled with Haechi. Everyone needs to be vocal. It's going to take some serious nerfing to bring this back to a normal playing field, and this needs to happen quickly. All the Expert/Master/Champion leaguers who don't have a full hangar of Haechi/MK2 will be left for food for the high rollers. Alot of lvl 9/10/11/12 F2P hangers are playing in Gold/Diamond. Things will escalate and rot the game to the core (if it hasn't already) Well, I was referring to the parts about some of those other games remaining balanced and earning their companies huge revenues. That should get Pix's attention. This post is different from the normal garbage people post to Pix on FB and reddit, and so i would think if presented well, it could at least get Pix thinking differently about their content. On a tangent: I don't think there are any pilots here that "dont want anyone to say the truth". Most people that take time to register and post on a forum dedicated to this game enjoy it and want it to see it thrive. A lot of the F2W vs P2W arguments are started by this misunderstanding that champions and hachi drivers want the game to be noncompetitive. I dont think that's true. Would be happy to explore that with you sometime in another thread. Cheers.
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Post by Domino on Nov 6, 2017 14:15:58 GMT -5
Apparently this is a vocal minority according to Pixonic. People who feed on the F2P don't want anyone to say the truth and have their competitive edge taken away. So they say things like bronzeknee has mentioned and then some. Unless everyone wants a game only filled with Haechi. Everyone needs to be vocal. It's going to take some serious nerfing to bring this back to a normal playing field, and this needs to happen quickly. All the Expert/Master/Champion leaguers who don't have a full hangar of Haechi/MK2 will be left for food for the high rollers. Alot of lvl 9/10/11/12 F2P hangers are playing in Gold/Diamond. Things will escalate and rot the game to the core (if it hasn't already) Well, I was referring to the parts about some of those other games remaining balanced and earning their companies huge revenues. That should get Pix's attention. This post is different from the normal garbage people post to Pix on FB and reddit, and so i would think if presented well, it could at least get Pix thinking differently about their content. On a tangent: I don't think there are any pilots here that "dont want anyone to say the truth". Most people that take time to register and post on a forum dedicated to this game enjoy it and want it to see it thrive. A lot of the F2W vs P2W arguments are started by this misunderstanding that champions and hachi drivers want the game to be noncompetitive. I dont think that's true. Would be happy to explore that with you sometime in another thread. Cheers. Happy to hear your thoughts on it. Formulate something in a PM if you wish. In order to have competitiveness you need a common foundation where skill wins. That foundation was removed and replaced with a Haechi/Bulg foundation, everything else is obsolete. Either you get to that point with MK2 stuff or remain behind and be at a major disadvantage, everything else will fall into place once you have 1 TT clan take the dip. I will state that before this, Lances were the TT meta. and you would regularly see 3+ lances hangar for the most part. The difference being you could actually hit a Lance and it wouldn't evade a full salvo of Orkans etc meant it could be killed with skill and some help. From my perspective that is gone for the most part and only a similar bot can compete effectively. Sorry, I don't mean to go on, send me a PM making a case, I'll be happy to read it. Good job OP
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Nov 6, 2017 14:17:16 GMT -5
Past behavior will represent future behavior. Pixonic has played their cards and has defined how they will be playing thier game. Either one accepts this or moves on.
The assessment is pointed and well presented, but I believe the words will not change the business model. The game is designed to reap as much as it can and then fold. The life cycle of a mobile game is short at best and no money can be left on the table when the clock is ticking down.
Pixonic is going to continue to do as they have. The people who refuse to accept this are cursing themselves to loosing their 「dookie」 after every update. The cards are on the table, play or fold.
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Post by hon_shu on Nov 6, 2017 14:17:18 GMT -5
Excellent post. I couldn't agree more. I'm now playing Expert II and routinely see the new overpowered stuff. And it's not just overpowered, as the OP points out, but Ember and Shocktrain just break the game. Dash capability is borderline and I personally just hate how it looks and plays. I'm not sure about the "vocal" part. Players have pointed out problems with all new content on test server and before release. Pixonic didn't care and even rushed the release in some cases. They're cashing in, no doubt about it. It's just a game. Maybe it's time to play another one? I think many people will, because currently War Robots just isn't fun any more, at least on Android and in higher-league play. And what's a game without fun? I'm thinking going back to chess, it's cheap and the rules don't change every four weeks
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Post by GuitarGuy on Nov 6, 2017 14:26:12 GMT -5
The only way to "balance" the game in my eyes to make things fair and still let people who want the best stuff buy those things is to go back to a hangar based system. This is the only way you will at least have balanced matches based on gear. Of course skill plays a huge part in it and there is no way to perfectly control that aspect of it But it would be nice to find a happier balance then what we have now.
Sadly, I have to agree with Rockwelder. Its there business and they are going to do what they want if they see the money rolling in to justify it.
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Post by bronzeknee on Nov 6, 2017 14:26:13 GMT -5
Past behavior will represent future behavior. Pixonic has played their cards and has defined how they will be playing thier game. Either one accepts this or moves on. The assessment is pointed and well presented, but I believe the words will not change the business model. The game is designed to reap as much as it can and then fold. The life cycle of a mobile game is short at best and no money can be left on the table when the clock is ticking down. Pixonic is going to continue to do as they have. The people who refuse to accept this are cursing themselves to loosing their ?poo-poo? after every update. The cards are on the table, play or fold. I don't know GuitarGuy and Rockwelder... how long has Angry Birds and Clash of Clans been around? Eventually a game will come and break the mold, if it hasn't already. In anything in life, the only limits are the ones you place on yourself. If you don't think your words won't change anything, then they won't. One of my favorite poems: If you think you are beaten, you are; If you think you dare not, you don't. If you'd like to win, but you think you can't, It is almost a certain - you won't.
If you think you'll lose, you're lost; For out in this world we find Success begins with a fellow's will It's all in the state of mind.
Life's battles don't always go To the stronger or faster man; But sooner or later the man who wins Is the one who thinks he can.
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Post by ♧SGT FURY 24/7♧ on Nov 6, 2017 14:28:01 GMT -5
Very well thought out and written. So nice to read something besides the usual, "_____ is OP!" whining and such. Thanks for making these points. I'll probably send Pix a short version of the main points.
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Post by Nexsan on Nov 6, 2017 14:53:48 GMT -5
It sucks, but it will suck even moreso for the players shelling out big bucks for future content if/when Pixonic decides to pull the plug. Best you can do is avoid being part of this scenario.
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Post by Jame-thon on Nov 6, 2017 15:25:58 GMT -5
Good post. Very thought provoking and insight. Gave another perspective I appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Wish Pix would read things like this and "change" their structure but as Rockwelder said is how I fear and understand their philosophy on this too.
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Post by krebby on Nov 6, 2017 16:00:28 GMT -5
I am convinced your analysis is correct. I think the American bots were a perfect example of how you can release a rare/prestigious/expensive bot that is balanced. But I fear Rockwelder's conclusion is essentially correct—Pixonic is not considering the long-term consequences of their business decisions. Maybe it is out of ignorance (in which case they might change) or out of cynicism (in which case it won't), but either way, Pixonic has painted itself into a corner. And it is very hard to imagine them changing course. I believe Pixonic is under the thrall of the "business intelligence" crowd. These BI-types don't approach games as gamers; they honed their skills in the gambling industry and now bring their gifts to us. For the BI analysts, they generally look for ways to *remove* player skill from the game. Let me offer an example: Adam Telfer, a FTP consultant who has done work for Pixonic, notes that "in order to be successful in free to play you need to pace a player’s progression so that they can play your game for months. . . . .For a game to enforce slow progression for all player types, you need to be able to balance with high precision. The more player skill effects the outcome of your game – the harder it is to balance for optimal monetization." Source: Mobile Free to Play: What about Player Skill?Here further explains that:
"If a player has a huge influence on the result of the round (whether they progress or not) then balancing for a skilled player versus an unskilled gamer would be impossible. I can beat the new Super Mario Bros. in a few hours, it takes others with less experience years to do the same. How Candy Crush builds these levels is by making the chance of winning, regardless of your skill, low. Like 5 to 10% (sometimes I’ve heard numbers even lower). But isn’t this frustrating? No! Since the game has so little skill (in comparison to other genres), they can balance these levels to make sure that players consistently come close to reaching the goal. Those near misses everyone talks about. These keep the player feeling like they can beat the level, they just need to play a few more times or convert. With higher player skill, this becomes much more difficult to achieve." He concludes by telling game designers that they have two options:
"1. I’m going to be that crazy game designer that cracks this nut. I’m going to go out and design a game with high skill that will dominate the marketplace that has strong retention and amazing monetization to shoot up the top grossing." or"2. I will sit back with most free to play designers and continue to find ways to subtly water down skill based mechanics so that we can keep players in the game long enough to monetize and turn them into dedicated players." --- There may be good people at Pixonic that recognize the danger of this sort of advice, but for whatever reason, they no longer seem to be the guys calling the shots.
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Post by cheap on Nov 6, 2017 17:11:06 GMT -5
agreed great post.mmm what is League of Legends? i've read this name on post before but never bothered to look into it.
again great points in your post.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Nov 6, 2017 17:39:10 GMT -5
It's a great read and well presented Panda. I'm glad to see that other monetization models exist that do not view players as bags of money like Pixonic does. There may still be time IF Pixonic acts, but that window is rapidly shrinking and there are few indications if any that Pixonic has had a change of direction. It unfortunately seems they prefer doubling down instead. In fairness to the last couple of releases, only haechi and shocktrains are gamebreaking imho. The new weapons and bots kumiho, bulgasari, inquisitor, glider, hellburner are playable assuming pix doesnt stupidly buff the newer ones before general release. What they do or dont do to haechi for the sake of game balance in the coming weeks will determine where this game is headed. It would certainly be the signal for me to stay or leave. Theres a lot of love and potential in this game. I hope it gets better, much better. But thats up to their management team.
You can lead a horse to liquor, but you cant make it drink..
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Post by Payxonic on Nov 6, 2017 19:35:55 GMT -5
As long as there is someone willing to pay "OP" game content no matter the cost. This "trend" will never stop.
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Post by ᕲΣΣᕲƧ on Nov 6, 2017 20:11:44 GMT -5
It's close to time that the player base will be forced to ask themselves if Mail.ru cares about War Robots at all or if they are only interested in recovering their investment in Pixonic plus a little extra to fund their next project. More and more it seems like their intention is to generate instant revenue at the expense of the the health of the game. If that is the case, at what point does investing additional time and money in War Robots stop making sense?
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Post by xXrobotrippinXx on Nov 6, 2017 20:12:47 GMT -5
Past behavior will represent future behavior. Pixonic has played their cards and has defined how they will be playing thier game. Either one accepts this or moves on. The assessment is pointed and well presented, but I believe the words will not change the business model. The game is designed to reap as much as it can and then fold. The life cycle of a mobile game is short at best and no money can be left on the table when the clock is ticking down. Pixonic is going to continue to do as they have. The people who refuse to accept this are cursing themselves to loosing their ?poo-poo? after every update. The cards are on the table, play or fold. 100% Sad but true. You can try to make your thoughts known to Pix but believing that things will get better, that they will do anything to fix the game or even deviate from the direction the game has been heading is only going to set yourselves up for more disappointment. I see all 5 stages of grief playing out on the forums everyday, but the 2 I see the most are “denial” and “bargaining”. Unfortunately, most players leave when they get to the “acceptance” stage.
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Nov 6, 2017 20:24:56 GMT -5
Past behavior will represent future behavior. Pixonic has played their cards and has defined how they will be playing thier game. Either one accepts this or moves on. The assessment is pointed and well presented, but I believe the words will not change the business model. The game is designed to reap as much as it can and then fold. The life cycle of a mobile game is short at best and no money can be left on the table when the clock is ticking down. Pixonic is going to continue to do as they have. The people who refuse to accept this are cursing themselves to loosing their ?poo-poo? after every update. The cards are on the table, play or fold. 100% Sad but true. You can try to make your thoughts known to Pix but believing that things will get better, that they will do anything to fix the game or even deviate from the direction the game has been heading is only going to set yourselves up for more disappointment. I see all 5 stages of grief playing out on the forums everyday, but the 2 I see the most are “denial” and “bargaining”. Unfortunately, most players leave when they get to the “acceptance” stage. That’s true because acceptance is generally when you accept the fact that the thing is dead and isn’t coming back. Why stick around waiting for it?
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Post by leavemealone on Nov 6, 2017 20:47:26 GMT -5
What is Pay to Win?
Pay to win shouldn't be taken literally. Money isn't spent to buy wins, rather it is spent to get a competitive advantage that increases the chances of winning. If pay to win were applied to Chess, it might mean being able to pay to replace a Rook with a Queen. Doing so wouldn't guarantee a win, a skilled played could still defeat an unskilled player that starts with an extra Queen, but it increases the chances the unskilled player wins. Paying to win in War Robots means paying for content (Shocktrain, Dash Robots, ect) that gives a competitive advantage over free content. Therefore, a game becomes a pay to win not when you can buy content, but when buying content offers a competitive advantage. And Pixonic openly admits it does, stating the Haechi is "the best of the best." But how should Pixonic make money? People don't play games forever...
One of the primary arguments we see defending Pixonic on this forum is that Pixonic needs to make the game pay to win to "keep the lights on" and that games have a lifespan, so Pixonic needs to cash in now. This argument has been pedaled by moderators, "trusted contributors," and long terms members. And it's complete garbage. The argument shows a narrow focus that ignores the history of gaming and lack of understanding of both games and human behavior in general. The League of Legends world championship, Worlds 2017, finished two days ago. Riot filled an arena and the best teams in the world battled for millions of dollars. Last year’s Worlds was watched by 43 million people worldwide. This year, I was one of them, watching as Samsung Galaxy led by Ruler defeated SK Telecom and the best player in League history, Faker. It was sensational. A free to play game released in 2009 that offers no competitive advantage for buying content, makes billions of dollars a year and created this storybook ending: That is what I want for War Robots. So how did League of Legends make a billion dollars a year as a free to play game and spawn an E-Sport? By being a good game. It is entirely skill and teamwork based, and no matter how much money you spend, you'll never have a competitive advantage. Ever. People don't just want to play good games, they want to watch them. And sponsors pay big money to reach males 18-34, and that is the primary audience of League. Sponsorships and a huge player base due to it being a good game is how League makes more money than any other video game. Can you imagine crowds like that, tens of thousands of screaming fans watching people play against each other in War Robots?
And people do play good games for forever. Chess is still played today because it is a good game... and I can hear it now "but Chess isn't a video game!" But Starcraft Broodwar is, and it's from 1998. The Afreeca Starleague Season 4 is ending on November 10th, 2017, with Flash and herO battling for an $87,650 prizepool. Broodwar has had competitive tournaments for more than half of my life. Hundreds of thousands of people will watch the finals worldwide, generating huge profits from sponsors. And tens of thousands of people still play Broodwar regularly. Because like Chess it is a good game. Good Games last forever. The Extra Queen
League, Chess and Starcraft are great games because there is balance in game design, which is necessary for one of the key areas of game design to shine: counterplay. It has been a false belief among many on this forum that availability is the problem with the new content, that players are complaining because they don't have access to the new strong content (ie they won't pay for it). But cost was the never the problem, the problem was always balance. It could be argued that if everyone did have the same access to the new content in War Robots then there wouldn't be balance concerns because everyone could just run the new content. And then the new content would make nearly everything else obsolete. But wouldn't that be the same as allowing rock to beat both paper and scissors in Rock-Paper-Scissors? Surely, it wouldn't be a good game then, everyone would throw rock and we'd have no way of deciding who is going to change the diaper or where we are going out to eat. And no one would play it. It’d lack counterplay, and counterplay is a requirement in good game design. An extra Queen, even in given to both sides in Chess, would ruin the balance of Chess and degrade it because it would reduce the amount of counterplay opportunities in the game. And the more Queens you add to the game, the less skillful and trivial Chess becomes. Pixonic is adding Queens to War Robots. Each new piece of content they add outclasses the last severely. And we have reached the point where this new content must be increasingly skilless to use in order to be more powerful than existing content. And so we have the Shocktrain. It deals damage instantly that can spread to multiple people. Its existence increasingly limits opportunities for counterplay and real shows of skill in War Robots. And just like Rock-Paper-Scissors without counterplay, War Robots without counterplay is not a good game. So people aren't going to play or watch it. That explains the sad exodus of players from War Robots. Counterplay isn't just what League of Legends is built on, it is what all good games are built on. And Pixonic is failing to provide it. It was never about cost
Dredd alluded to this in his article, Pixonic and the $300 Bot, stating "as long as they don’t break the balance of the game, rare and exclusive bots are not the problem" and he is absolutely right. Pixonic could make a thousand dollar robot and as long as it is essentially an even fight to the other robots in the game, it is fine. But if that thousand dollar robot was easy acquire for free or offered no competitive advantage, who would buy that robot? Probably no one. So it goes without saying then that the only way for Pixonic to justify the sky high price tags for new content is to make the new content both incredibly strong and incredibly difficult to acquire. If either of those things weren't true, people wouldn't be willing to shell out big bucks, they'd either use cheaper alternatives or grind the content for free. But Pixonic doesn't seem interested in balancing War Robots. The Ember and Shocktrain are literally game breaking in terms of balance. The Dash Robots and Inquisitor are clearly overpowered. Thus, everything that is really strong in the game is also very difficult to acquire, justifying the massive price tags. So here we are, clearly in pay to win territory, as the competitive advantage of the new content is undeniable. This again explains why League of Legends doesn't have expensive transactions. As a game that isn't pay to win, Riot understands how ridiculous it would be to overprice new content. No one would buy it unless it offered people some kind of advantage. I've played Karthus since the beginning in League, and while I don't play League much anymore, I know that anytime I can step back into the game and Karthus will be relevant in the game and balanced against whatever else I face, just as nearly every champion in the game is. You can't say the same for War Robots. The Rhino that was the meta robot just a short time ago, isn't viable anymore. There is no play or counterplay that allows any kind Rhino to defeat an Orkan Haechi (save the Orkan Haechi making huge mistakes). But there is play and counterplay that allows Karthus to be viable against nearly every champion. Play and counterplay is what make games great. The lack of it in War Robots shows we've lost the meta, which is the heart of any game. There is no the meta
A sad consequence of War Robots becoming a pay to win game is that player involvement in developing the meta is non-existent. Many of the most impressive moments in Starcraft history came when a player reinvented the meta by developing a unique new strategy, often in a highstakes tournament. The following days on the ladder, players of all skill levels would try to emulate the new strategy, and overtime it would be refined and remain dominant until it was "figured out" and then other new strategies (or sometimes old ones would come back) would be developed and take over. The meta is almost completely out of the control of Blizzard, left entirely to the players. What drove the meta was player creativity and what made the game exciting is anyone can reinvent the meta at any time. And that can only happen if there is no way to pay to gain a competitive advantage. But Pixonic has created a game where the meta is governed not by player skill, but by expensive new content that outclasses anything released previously, ensuring that the new releases become the meta. Thus, it is no longer a game of skill, there is no strategy to discuss and speak of. War Robots is a sad shell of a game where the meta is driven by cash, not creativity. That makes it destined to fail; War Robots will never be as successful as League of Legend in game design quality or profits because it offers players a way to pay for a competitive advantage.
War Robots is the definition of a pay to win game. love you man no homo. You always bring up a really good point and all your posts has been meaningful and fascinating to read, never a downer. Every content get stronger and stronger leaving older items weak and, to stay competitive you have to pay the items for it, that not skill, that call '' suck at video games '' that you don't want bothered to learn the game mechanic. This game offer no cognitive challenge to the table what so ever just point and shoot and get quick that easy p'z gratification feeling. I like to also add how this game has no room for coverage and the tactical strategy is watered down to its primitive level. You expect light robots out run missiles or take cover behind wall from further taking damage from missile... BUT Nope! all robots get treated the as the same. I just want to say the game design flaw is so bad.
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Post by xXrobotrippinXx on Nov 6, 2017 21:15:16 GMT -5
100% Sad but true. You can try to make your thoughts known to Pix but believing that things will get better, that they will do anything to fix the game or even deviate from the direction the game has been heading is only going to set yourselves up for more disappointment. I see all 5 stages of grief playing out on the forums everyday, but the 2 I see the most are “denial” and “bargaining”. Unfortunately, most players leave when they get to the “acceptance” stage. That’s true because acceptance is generally when you accept the fact that the thing is dead and isn’t coming back. Why stick around waiting for it? Well in my case, I don’t level anything past 9. It keeps me bouncing between D2 & D1 which keeps the Dash hangars and bad MM (full champ squads) and the BS at bay. Or at least to a minimum. I am perfectly content to stay there and play the bots I enjoy running & get new bots & weapons to upgrade and play with. I enjoy playing still because I’m not a slave to the Meta. So I’ve accepted the direction the game has gone and adapted in a way I can still enjoy it. I’m not saying that’s what everyone should do or anything or that I’m better than anyone else for it. Just that it’s worked for me. If others are not willing to entertain that idea, I don’t blame them for leaving. If was already a Champ and in a competitive clan and put in the work for all that top tier stuff, I might have just started a new account but probably would have left.
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Post by leavemealone on Nov 6, 2017 21:45:21 GMT -5
Apparently this is a vocal minority according to Pixonic. People who feed on the F2P don't want anyone to say the truth and have their competitive edge taken away. So they say things like bronzeknee has mentioned and then some. Unless everyone wants a game only filled with Haechi. Everyone needs to be vocal. It's going to take some serious nerfing to bring this back to a normal playing field, and this needs to happen quickly. All the Expert/Master/Champion leaguers who don't have a full hangar of Haechi/MK2 will be left for food for the high rollers. Alot of lvl 9/10/11/12 F2P hangers are playing in Gold/Diamond. Things will escalate and rot the game to the core (if it hasn't already) Well, I was referring to the parts about some of those other games remaining balanced and earning their companies huge revenues. That should get Pix's attention. This post is different from the normal garbage people post to Pix on FB and reddit, and so i would think if presented well, it could at least get Pix thinking differently about their content. On a tangent: I don't think there are any pilots here that "dont want anyone to say the truth". Most people that take time to register and post on a forum dedicated to this game enjoy it and want it to see it thrive. A lot of the F2W vs P2W arguments are started by this misunderstanding that champions and hachi drivers want the game to be noncompetitive. I dont think that's true. Would be happy to explore that with you sometime in another thread. Cheers. ' I don't think there are any pilots here that "dont want anyone to say the truth" this is very strong written post by OP. Definitely the whales don't want this post go out for community awareness, they don't want the truth to be told for two reasons 1) to have edge to winning in non competitive environment 2) thousands of dollars they invested into this game, Now if tomorrow pix decide to nerf everything down to 90% power, think about how much this will hurt the wallet warriors.
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Post by bronzeknee on Nov 7, 2017 0:45:05 GMT -5
I am convinced your analysis is correct. I think the American bots were a perfect example of how you can release a rare/prestigious/expensive bot that is balanced. But I fear Rockwelder's conclusion is essentially correct—Pixonic is not considering the long-term consequences of their business decisions. Maybe it is out of ignorance (in which case they might change) or out of cynicism (in which case it won't), but either way, Pixonic has painted itself into a corner. And it is very hard to imagine them changing course. I believe Pixonic is under the thrall of the "business intelligence" crowd. These BI-types don't approach games as gamers; they honed their skills in the gambling industry and now bring their gifts to us. For the BI analysts, they generally look for ways to *remove* player skill from the game. Let me offer an example: Adam Telfer, a FTP consultant who has done work for Pixonic, notes that "in order to be successful in free to play you need to pace a player’s progression so that they can play your game for months. . . . .For a game to enforce slow progression for all player types, you need to be able to balance with high precision. The more player skill effects the outcome of your game – the harder it is to balance for optimal monetization." Source: Mobile Free to Play: What about Player Skill?Here further explains that:
"If a player has a huge influence on the result of the round (whether they progress or not) then balancing for a skilled player versus an unskilled gamer would be impossible. I can beat the new Super Mario Bros. in a few hours, it takes others with less experience years to do the same. How Candy Crush builds these levels is by making the chance of winning, regardless of your skill, low. Like 5 to 10% (sometimes I’ve heard numbers even lower). But isn’t this frustrating? No! Since the game has so little skill (in comparison to other genres), they can balance these levels to make sure that players consistently come close to reaching the goal. Those near misses everyone talks about. These keep the player feeling like they can beat the level, they just need to play a few more times or convert. With higher player skill, this becomes much more difficult to achieve." He concludes by telling game designers that they have two options:
"1. I’m going to be that crazy game designer that cracks this nut. I’m going to go out and design a game with high skill that will dominate the marketplace that has strong retention and amazing monetization to shoot up the top grossing." or"2. I will sit back with most free to play designers and continue to find ways to subtly water down skill based mechanics so that we can keep players in the game long enough to monetize and turn them into dedicated players." --- There may be good people at Pixonic that recognize the danger of this sort of advice, but for whatever reason, they no longer seem to be the guys calling the shots. Great read. Interesting to see this "other side." I remember reading some pieces about Sci-Rev (which Pixonic uses) about industry "best practices" as it pertains to dynamic pricing, and I was just dumbfounded that people don't look at League of Legends and use that as their reference point for "best practices." We're talking about the difference between games that make millions and billions. The games that make billions should clearly represent the best practices. It honestly shocks me that people want to go out and play games with low skill ceilings. Of course, people are buying the Shocktrain so I shouldn't be shocked, but I still am. High skill games stand the test of time and people want to watch them. The Afreeca Starleague final is the best evidence of this. Broodwar is 2d, from 1998, with terrible graphics. But it has probably the highest skill ceiling of any game in history. The Low skill games are a dime a dozen. They don't last.
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Post by leavemealone on Nov 7, 2017 2:36:50 GMT -5
I am convinced your analysis is correct. I think the American bots were a perfect example of how you can release a rare/prestigious/expensive bot that is balanced. But I fear Rockwelder's conclusion is essentially correct—Pixonic is not considering the long-term consequences of their business decisions. Maybe it is out of ignorance (in which case they might change) or out of cynicism (in which case it won't), but either way, Pixonic has painted itself into a corner. And it is very hard to imagine them changing course. I believe Pixonic is under the thrall of the "business intelligence" crowd. These BI-types don't approach games as gamers; they honed their skills in the gambling industry and now bring their gifts to us. For the BI analysts, they generally look for ways to *remove* player skill from the game. Let me offer an example: Adam Telfer, a FTP consultant who has done work for Pixonic, notes that "in order to be successful in free to play you need to pace a player’s progression so that they can play your game for months. . . . .For a game to enforce slow progression for all player types, you need to be able to balance with high precision. The more player skill effects the outcome of your game – the harder it is to balance for optimal monetization." Source: Mobile Free to Play: What about Player Skill?Here further explains that:
"If a player has a huge influence on the result of the round (whether they progress or not) then balancing for a skilled player versus an unskilled gamer would be impossible. I can beat the new Super Mario Bros. in a few hours, it takes others with less experience years to do the same. How Candy Crush builds these levels is by making the chance of winning, regardless of your skill, low. Like 5 to 10% (sometimes I’ve heard numbers even lower). But isn’t this frustrating? No! Since the game has so little skill (in comparison to other genres), they can balance these levels to make sure that players consistently come close to reaching the goal. Those near misses everyone talks about. These keep the player feeling like they can beat the level, they just need to play a few more times or convert. With higher player skill, this becomes much more difficult to achieve." He concludes by telling game designers that they have two options:
"1. I’m going to be that crazy game designer that cracks this nut. I’m going to go out and design a game with high skill that will dominate the marketplace that has strong retention and amazing monetization to shoot up the top grossing." or"2. I will sit back with most free to play designers and continue to find ways to subtly water down skill based mechanics so that we can keep players in the game long enough to monetize and turn them into dedicated players." --- There may be good people at Pixonic that recognize the danger of this sort of advice, but for whatever reason, they no longer seem to be the guys calling the shots. Great read. Interesting to see this "other side." I remember reading some pieces about Sci-Rev (which Pixonic uses) about industry "best practices" as it pertains to dynamic pricing, and I was just dumbfounded that people don't look at League of Legends and use that as their reference point for "best practices." We're talking about the difference between games that make millions and billions. The games that make billions should clearly represent the best practices. It honestly shocks me that people want to go out and play games with low skill ceilings. Of course, people are buying the Shocktrain so I shouldn't be shocked, but I still am. High skill games stand the test of time and people want to watch them. The Afreeca Starleague final is the best evidence of this. Broodwar is 2d, from 1998, with terrible graphics. But it has probably the highest skill ceiling of any game in history. The Low skill games are a dime a dozen. They don't last. Another in game item disease is the gotcha loot box (voice inside my head hear Dave Chapelle saying gotcha b-i-t-c-h) what better way to control cash flow is to implement rare/legendary items in these reward system.
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Post by leavemealone on Nov 7, 2017 2:42:18 GMT -5
Wow no strats involved just roll up to their face and blast them with these weapons in one volley
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Post by NerFB on Nov 7, 2017 4:36:46 GMT -5
bronzekneeOutstanding thread, well written eloquently argued and debated, just a great example of this Forum in action. Probably due to my profession, I think in Product and Functionality Releases and Transitions states. If you consider the Transition of Walking War Robots to War Robots, the Key Releases have been 1) Brit Bots - a success for Pix, and probably for the player pool also. it gave an incremental increase in performance, didn't make everything before that obsolete. 2) Wild West - Probably a failure for Pix, I guess the "take up" was low as there was little incentive for players to purchase them, and the skill threshold to make them successful is arguably high. 3) Weapons - I'd note there has been greater investment in new generations of Bots than Weapons, but the changes in mechanics has been the other way around. The weapons have seen the greatest change in how they function, damage, reload time, trajectory. I don't know, but it almost feels like 2 separate dev teams with different strategies, 1 for Bots and 1 Weapons. Maybe the Weapons team have been told to get a move on and generate revenue? 4) KBots - If the Wild West Bots were a failure (massive assumption) the new Owners would have looked at the history, doubled down on the Brit Bot strategy and gone for a massive hike in performance, at a significant cost. Make no mistake, Financially, this release has been successful for Pixo. Final point - the C-suite (CEO, CFO etc) in software companies is musical chairs, they change every year... The decision they made 3 months ago is no indication of the decisions they will make next year.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 5:32:05 GMT -5
My last hope is that they had financial problems (due to a massive f2p playerbase maybe?) and things will get better once they solved them. Not very optimistic about that tho.
I also have a feeling that pix/mail.ru is finacially involved in battle of titans... would explain lot of things.
Call me whatever you want, but i wont install a russian game ever again.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Nov 7, 2017 11:46:02 GMT -5
bronzeknee Outstanding thread, well written eloquently argued and debated, just a great example of this Forum in action. Probably due to my profession, I think in Product and Functionality Releases and Transitions states. If you consider the Transition of Walking War Robots to War Robots, the Key Releases have been 1) Brit Bots - a success for Pix, and probably for the player pool also. it gave an incremental increase in performance, didn't make everything before that obsolete. 2) Wild West - Probably a failure for Pix, I guess the "take up" was low as there was little incentive for players to purchase them, and the skill threshold to make them successful is arguably high. 3) Weapons - I'd note there has been greater investment in new generations of Bots than Weapons, but the changes in mechanics has been the other way around. The weapons have seen the greatest change in how they function, damage, reload time, trajectory. I don't know, but it almost feels like 2 separate dev teams with different strategies, 1 for Bots and 1 Weapons. Maybe the Weapons team have been told to get a move on and generate revenue? 4) KBots - If the Wild West Bots were a failure (massive assumption) the new Owners would have looked at the history, doubled down on the Brit Bot strategy and gone for a massive hike in performance, at a significant cost. Make no mistake, Financially, this release has been successful for Pixo. Final point - the C-suite (CEO, CFO etc) in software companies is musical chairs, they change every year... The decision they made 3 months ago is no indication of the decisions they will make next year. the main issue i see with the k bots is they have no disadvantage. the rhino when it was the best? slow movement spped and less weapons in assalt mode. the brit bots? galahad and gareth had less health then other similar bots, and the lance had 3 seprate shields that were bad against splash. the fury? slow speed and large size. the new rog? no shield at all, good but not very powerful health and speed. The kbots? very good speed, very good health, hardpoints are better than similar bots, dash, energy shield for heicha and phyical for bulgisia. their drawback...cost. all the other gold bots have a small issue that makes them vulnerable to a certain stragety more than others. this is why i believed them to be bnanced. the kbots have no real weakness, so they cannot be beaten easier in anyway.
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