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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 17:33:36 GMT -5
A few days ago the War Robots facebook posted the Podcast channel of Dr.Evil. One episode was pre-3.2 and featured Blitheran, containing a conversation encompassing many things concerning War Robots. One of the topics that stood out the most to me, is how lower impact bots (Ag bots in particular) are meant for lower leagues, and should not be buffed to a point of finding a niche in the meta. The counter point was that these bots were no longer being used in lower leagues either, with most pilots recieving a recommendation to load up on Griffins and Leos the moment these bots become available. The other well known piece of advice has always been to get as many slots as possible, as soon as possible. These two things made me think. Maybe the biggest dilemma with the MM is how hard people are pushing to reach the upper league metas despite the VERY obvious level of grindy-ness between upper level upgrade costs, repair costs, and the progression rate through the MM/league system skip when transitioning from Destriers and Cossacks, to Griffins and Leos. What I've noticed is that, as a general perspective, more hangar slots allows for more loadout diversity. My question with this, is with the current league system, is that really such a good thing for low league players? Diversity of load outs is kind of moot when any particular bot among them lacks any real impact on the battlefield due to split assets. Many newbies that come to these forums speak about hoe they're in over their heads for one reason or another, usually because they play well. But when it comes down to it, are slots doing anything more than prolonging an uphill battle on a bunch of 6/5 robots? The other school of thinking that is far less supported is bots before slots, and while it has some merits with the aforementioned line of thinking, it might be equally wrong. Keeping only two to four slots and filling them with premium bots/weapons only inflates one's player score, and expends resources faster than they can be accumulated, causing said player to hit a wall where they have the same kinds of hard times as underlevelled 4-5 slot hangars. This brings me back to the "Low calibur bots for low leagues" thought process, where many of the inexpensive items are "meant" for lower leagues as stepping stones. Previously, Mail.Ru stated that the pillars that the league system was meant to be built on (that they scrapped) was limiting bot availability with the leagues themselves. Imo, scrapping this aspect, but keeping the system that it was supposed to be a part of, could be the biggest reason the MM has been such a mess. It's often people with more hangar slots catch more hogwash from the MM than someone like Firebeard , that has kept 3 slots and uses primarily Ag equipment. With all that input, I've set out to do, what I always do, an experiment on progress in game. The Slots before bots advice dates back to a time where MM only considered a single bot in your hangar for your placement, now, it is based solely on per-game placement and point accumulation. The process is: Bots: -Only purchase a new bot to fill new slots until all 5 slots are unlocked -Only purchase a new slot when bots in current slots reach 12/12 Weapons: -Only use Pixo recommended setups for current bots -Use Ag setups when possible. Since I've always loved the most useless bot in the game, I've decided the theme I'm going to follow is Transatlantic Military Corp, which consists of Destrier, Patton, Griffin, Fury, with Rhino as the bot before Fury (Due to F2P theorycraft). I'll try to update this post every week with progress.   |
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Post by _psychø on Sept 24, 2017 18:00:41 GMT -5
Slots vs girlfriends vs men...  |
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Post by Kanshou on Sept 24, 2017 18:34:34 GMT -5
Slots vs girlfriends vs men... Lol. Love your profile pic once again.  |
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Post by frunobulax on Sept 24, 2017 18:44:22 GMT -5
I tried this once, going basically with stock medium AG robots and weapons. It was extremely frustrating, because you will rise quickly in leagues despite of your weak equipment, simply because you know how to play.
Then the problem becomes that you lose a lot of games to players that are obviously much weaker, but have the better bots. (If you can avoid tankers.) That's very, very frustrating, and I gave up quickly. Also the fun aspect, that light/medium robots are faster and more agile, was missing, because heavy robots are now so much faster (I think Natty was buffed all the way from 20kph to 33kph), and medium robots have no more speed advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 18:57:50 GMT -5
I tried this once, going basically with stock medium AG robots and weapons. It was extremely frustrating, because you will rise quickly in leagues despite of your weak equipment, simply because you know how to play. Then the problem becomes that you lose a lot of games to players that are obviously much weaker, but have the better bots. (If you can avoid tankers.) That's very, very frustrating, and I gave up quickly. Also the fun aspect, that light/medium robots are faster and more agile, was missing, because heavy robots are now so much faster (I think Natty was buffed all the way from 20kph to 33kph), and medium robots have no more speed advantage. Fatty Natty was 18kmph. The biggest problem for new players, imo, is the lack of experience. Players that load up in full RDB Griffin hangars as soon as they reach level 16 aren't learning anything, as they almost immediately out DPS anything other than heavy bots. I'm used to fighting 9/9+ with lv 6-7 gear, on top of that since I originally started over a year ago, I'm accustomed to using less firepower with more effect. Progress so far has been steady, and more often than not there is already a few silver 2-1 players every match (with 6/6-8/8 Wsp gear), so only time will tell. As of right now, the only frustration is the sheer amount of Hydra/Zenits and Noricums being used by players with only 3 slots that Queue up on my team on maps like Dead city and PP. |
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Post by acdcfan on Sept 24, 2017 21:30:58 GMT -5
Slots vs girlfriends vs men... I love to play with my wife's slot  |
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Post by Firebeard on Sept 25, 2017 16:21:45 GMT -5
Very well written, completely objective and brings a lot points to be considered.
It's my belief that 3×[12/12] is greater than 5×[6/6]. But several counterpoints, you've mentioned are present in the current MM. It gives 'one pause. With all mecha being similar in capability and weapons being equalized, there really is no set Hard and Fast rules, any more. Sometimes you could need 5 mecha, other times you only required 2, 3 or even 1.
Ohhh .. and I only have 1 pair of Ag weapons (Molots) lol
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Post by xXrobotrippinXx on Sept 25, 2017 17:07:15 GMT -5
Great post. I like your outside the bots thinking (okay i meant to type "box" but it made for a good pun so I left it.) You bring up much to take into consideration and I'm interested in your findings. For a minute it mad me stop and kind of question whether or not we have been giving newbies good or bad advice this whole time.
However, for now I'm standing firm in my belief that it is best to acquire all 5 slots and end-game bots as soon as possible.
One major reason for this is investment. It's better in the long run for a player to invest time, Ag, Au, WSP, etc, in buying and upgrading something they are going to keep and use all throughout the game as opposed to something that will end up sitting in storage.
The other, and probably more important reason is that it helps build skill. Yes, it sucks when you are at that point in the game where you have moved up in the league probably too quickly because you have 4-5 slots filled with bots and weapons that aren't leveled as much as you're opponents. And a newer player in that situation may have to deal with getting pummeled well over 50% of matches for a couple weeks. But as they continue to upgrade it will start to even out. I see it as very similar to when we move up a league.
During this time of slow progression, I feel, is when some of the best skills are learned. This is how you learn to use cover better, when to be agressive vs conservative, when TO or when NOT TO try to cap a beacon, etc.
Then as I said, it starts to even out as the player continues upgrading and after hanging in there and grinding it out, when those upgrades catch up, it will be sooo much easier because they've already been forced to learn and use skill and tactics over pure firepower to get through the rough patch. Now they've got both skill AND firepower.
Goes back to "you gotta play the best to be the best".
I don't know. Just my thoughts on it. Let us know what you come up with. ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 18:31:55 GMT -5
I haven't weighed in on this recently because I haven't experienced the many changes and had to face that decision again.
But this advice comes from the stone age, or should I call it the Silver Age. When the best bots were all silver and the best weapons were all silver. Bots like the Patton were king, Punishers were OP (yes, really a thing), Molots. Then came the big daddy of them all, the mighty Boa with the fearsome Thunder and that medium hardpoint.
During the BritBot reign, the Galahad was king so it was a change in meta. This is the time I realized this, so I supported buying a Britbot, then 5th slot. I started a second account, and put this to the test. I tried every silver bot when moving up, around 5/5 or so. Patton sucked. Leo too slow. Boa got beat by Leos. Griffin got beat by shield bots, and it was pretty much another Leo at lvl 5. It wasn't until I bought a Britbot, that it made a huge difference in my games and I could survive more than 2x as long as a silver bot. It was able to dodge 300m rockets by back pedaling, and was as tough as a Leo with that shield. Then I bought another Britbot cause my Gareth wasn't hacking it anymore, and the Galahad became THE workhorse in my 4 slot hanger.
So yes, I argued for buying a Britbot at this time. You could have another crappy silver bot in that 5th slot and waste 5000 gold to do that. Or you could get a Galahad that was worth 2 bots for only 2500 gold.
So I wasn't just theory crafting, and I had tested this out before giving out the advice. You can look at the old threads, and many were still giving out advice from the stone age. It's natural to follow old and useless advice and believe them, esp. since the Champions were heavily in favor of this at the time since they had fond memories of their hangers full of 5 Boas, and later 5 Rhinos. Remember, this was during the previous rocket age where the rocket king was the Fury Trident, so Rhinos were not viable at all either.
Back to my story. Then came the events, and I spent all of my 5K gold on them instead of a 5th slot, and got a huge return in investment. (Yes, investment not gambling for me because I knew the returns.) I have a thread on what I won in that event, but lots of gold bots: Fury, Rogatka, more Gepards than I need, Orkans, Galahads, more Gareths, etc. Again, gold well spent on spinning the wheel since many argued one of the benefits of getting a 5th slot was earning more gold by getting more dmg but we all know you'll just move up the leagues higher unless you tank. My account was dormant after that.
So today, I still only have 4 slots and still not enough gold for 5th (this is my smurf account, main account is in Masters). I have enough silver in the bank to ride my main account to level 12 without playing anymore, so I decided to fire up my ol' hanger. I've been playing a week now, and still doing pretty good w only 4 slots.
510K avg dmg with 7/7.5 hanger in Gold1. Gotta screenshot I can try and post if anyone doesn't believe me. Current hanger is RDB Griffin, DB Griffin, Thunder Magnum Leo, and plasma Galahad.
My feelings today are this. I can personally play fine with 4 slots, and don't miss the 5th slot except for variety. With the new mode (BR mode), silver bots like Leo Thunder or Carnage Thunders will crush in Gold tier. Rhino is viable again. So it becomes a question of 5th slot vs getting a set of Orkans first. I'm happy with my setup, a DB Griffin; and I could prolly replace my Galahad w another Griffin or a Rhino and be fine either way. Even with all the nerfs to the Galahad, I still like it in my hanger as it can get some serious mileage in Gold and Diamond tier. But I understand if some don't recommend it at all anymore.
I think there's a lot more flexibility in the "5K gold" debate. Get Orkans first; Get 5th slot and fill it with silver and WSP bots; Get a Vader Patton. So there isn't much for me to say and argue. Just do what you want.
Just do want you want.
Major edditions (edit + addition) in green.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 19:15:28 GMT -5
xXrobotrippinXxWhile I understand that line of thinking, I feel as though it's what contributes to the lack of room for new players to learn. There are 27 bots in the game,only six of them are undisputed "Top Tier" bots, and only one of those (Griffin) is accessible to low level players without dropping a AAA game's cost into this Moba. With a great deal of newbies jumping into Griffins ASAP, it makes for a silver tier of 6/6-9/9 because of how early they were obtained. New players start running into silver league players before they break Private, and are also forced out of Recruit/Private league before they hit 100 games. The lack of skill attached to the pilot is also what keeps 8/8 -10/10 pilots that aren't ranking in gold leagues. A mildly skilled player following this forum's mantras can make it to Gold league in less than a month. The amount of resources accumulated in that time is not adequate for any kind of real progression from that point. The rate of advancement comes to a screeching halt, all the while still fighting hangars of far superior levels. Starting the game with fast progression gives a false impression to the finish line, which as we've seen through many MM/league rants, is disheartening at the very least. I only partially agree with the resource management. Someone learning how to actually play, instead of relying on "META!NEED NOW" items is forced into a slower rate of progression, leading to more overall resources gained while advancing. The quicker they race to run meta setups, the quicker they run into higher level meta setups, putting in a significant dent into their Au/Ag accumulation. Also, while running two bots until they're maxed, a player learns where they should be with what they've got, instead of blindly charging to a beacon or the nearest enemy in hopes of out damaging the opponent. This skill is invaluable in high tier play because of the dominance of the Death Button. It's also 6-8 items to upgrade, and have forever, instead of trying to push 25 items to the next level while fighting hangars a full 2-4 levels higher, and gaining little to no Au per battle. To be the best, you have to play with the best, is very true, but what we're doing, at least from my perspective, is trying to rush a Little Leaguer into the World Series as fast as possible. Many of the max players around were maxed before Upgrade times and Ag/Au earnings were originally nerfed,so when someone's perspective is from when it only took 2-3 days to get a bot to 10, at half the cost, in an MM that only accounted for your single strongest rig set, it needs to be challenged. Previously the "Recommended Action" at the top of the screen was a joke, because MM factored only the levels of one bot and its weapons. Now, more bots, and higher impact bots with little to no skill, only serve to inflate a player's ranking points to where they are close enough to see the top meta but still months to a year away from catching up with that meta without spending quite a bit of RM. Hence the riots of Pay 2 Win. My internet has been fishy so I can't play as much as I would like, but I will definitely keep this post updated.
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Post by Poopface on Sept 25, 2017 19:38:28 GMT -5
Slots vs girlfriends vs men... I love to play with my wife's slot I almost said, "don't we all?" then realized what it would have meant. Oy..... |
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Post by acdcfan on Sept 25, 2017 20:10:52 GMT -5
I love to play with my wife's slot I almost said, "don't we all?" then realized what it would have meant. Oy..... Trying to hide the beaver in the slot |
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Post by stokr on Sept 25, 2017 20:45:55 GMT -5
Also, while running two bots until they're maxed While I agree with your premise, having been through the base stages multiple times, I think restricting oneself to 2 bots for so long is excessive. Especially considering that the 3rd slot comes fast and is cheap. Sure, that increases the upgrade load by a third, but everything comes pretty quick for a while. I don't think 1 more bot would result in holding one's progress back in an overly meaningful way. With 3 slots one can build into the base of a DB, PDB, and a midrange, which is the foundation for much that comes later. Going from one extreme to the other, well...sorry...but it just appears to be trying to hard to prove a point. Also, regardless of outcome, is that what a new player wants to do? Just play with two bots, for how long if they're learning and don't have any of your experience? 3 seems more reasonable just for the sake of variety even. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 21:06:37 GMT -5
Also, while running two bots until they're maxed While I agree with your premise, having been through the base stages multiple times, I think restricting oneself to 2 bots for so long is excessive. Especially considering that the 3rd slot comes fast and is cheap. Sure, that increases the upgrade load by a third, but everything comes pretty quick for a while. I don't think 1 more bot would result in holding one's progress back in an overly meaningful way. With 3 slots one can build into the base of a DB, PDB, and a midrange, which is the foundation for much that comes later. Going from one extreme to the other, well...sorry...but it just appears to be trying to hard to prove a point. Also, regardless of outcome, is that what a new player wants to do? Just play with two bots, for how long if they're learning and don't have any of your experience? 3 seems more reasonable just for the sake of variety even. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude. It's all good. My point is that there are practical and fun aspect to everything. For the time being, what's fun tends to drive players into a tough spot. Midrange is something that newer players shouldn't touch until they have at least 4 slots, as it contributes less overall. Realistically though, is playing 2 bots up to max really any different than sitting in silver/Gold with 5 underleveled Griffins? There are two sides to the coin, and while one side is displayed very often, even with a wide array of variables, is very consistent with it's results, the other side isn't explored at all, based solely on the premise of severely outdated experiences. While I wouldn't suggest doing what I am, because I obviously have a lot of experience under my belt, an experiment using an extreme control can easily be used as a litmus test to what's already been established. Somewhere between two extremes, an ideal lies, and most of my time playing War Robots has been spent chasing that ideal. For me,knowing how and what the mountain is made of iss a lot more satisfying than sitting at the top of it. |
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Post by gman4hire on Sept 28, 2017 10:58:37 GMT -5
i personally have followed the advice from pros on this forum... my first goal that 5th slot.
2nd was getting griffs i have 2 rdb and punisher atm
3rd goal was end game bots
lancelot and carnage.
altho this advice seems solid and i see the benefits of reaching the best proper hanger asap, not wasting hard to earn currency on bots thatll quickly gather dust.
ive been playing 2 months and have quickly reached gold league, and im now getting owned! my high score in silver was 711k my average score per game at present is 300k : ( in no longer competitive with my low lvl hanger and i play to win every game as best i can.. i will not tank!!! but am naturally slipping back to silver which is welcome.
i have no point to this just thought ide share my experience as a newb.
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Post by sanr on Oct 2, 2017 14:35:34 GMT -5
i personally have followed the advice from pros on this forum... my first goal that 5th slot. 2nd was getting griffs i have 2 rdb and punisher atm 3rd goal was end game bots lancelot and carnage. altho this advice seems solid and i see the benefits of reaching the best proper hanger asap, not wasting hard to earn currency on bots thatll quickly gather dust. ive been playing 2 months and have quickly reached gold league, and im now getting owned! my high score in silver was 711k my average score per game at present is 300k : ( in no longer competitive with my low lvl hanger and i play to win every game as best i can.. i will not tank!!! but am naturally slipping back to silver which is welcome. i have no point to this just thought ide share my experience as a newb. Can you post a picture of your account? I've had a similar experience. However, I'm not getting owned totally. Better yet, make a separate thread. There's a lot to talk about. |
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Kaliaila
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Pilot name: Kaliaila 9JU93
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League: Silver
Server Region: North America
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Post by Kaliaila on Oct 3, 2017 17:40:52 GMT -5
I have been playing about a month and a half now been working towards 5th slot, and constantly upgrading bots, there are plenty non gold bots which are better to aim for so that you can have that 5th to fall back on when you get sniped by the OP ranged weapons in the game. The Gold bots are not worth the costs and the idea that they are good for low level players is only logical if you expect (or want) those players to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to get them. Because playing normally to get the gold you will see that just having an extra bot can be the difference between a win and a lose.
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Post by gman4hire on Oct 7, 2017 3:15:36 GMT -5
sorry sanr i cant post my hangar as my last update i did a restall and lost my account : (
im waiting on pix to sort me out.. my own fault i never back up anything to gp! I will hopefully be back on next week, and will by then have slipped down a league so it should be a fairer fight.
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Post by sanr on Oct 7, 2017 6:19:33 GMT -5
sorry sanr i cant post my hangar as my last update i did a restall and lost my account : ( im waiting on pix to sort me out.. my own fault i never back up anything to gp! I will hopefully be back on next week, and will by then have slipped down a league so it should be a fairer fight. Sure! I don't think you'll slip down leagues if you don't play. Am I wrong? |
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Post by gman4hire on Oct 7, 2017 6:35:14 GMT -5
I was at the promo point when the last update dropped, i was actively trying not to go up another league (not tanking just not playing ) I pressume that if my points stayed below the promo level that i would not progress? not dropping leagues but having another season in the same one.. is this not how it works?
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Post by sanr on Oct 7, 2017 6:45:13 GMT -5
I was at the promo point when the last update dropped, i was actively trying not to go up another league (not tanking just not playing ) I pressume that if my points stayed below the promo level that i would not progress? not dropping leagues but having another season in the same one.. is this not how it works? Possibly. I'm not aware of how this might work, as I never gave it much thought. Maybe, some enlightened soul could shed some light on this. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 20:15:50 GMT -5
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Post by moody on Oct 12, 2017 22:11:04 GMT -5
It definitely keeps you further down the leagues and with more resources. I am constantly battling to have enough silver for the next upgrade - something that was never a problem the first time around.  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 22:47:47 GMT -5
moodyLosses aren't as depressing either. Instead of fighting your arse off for 8 minutes trying to win with a team of blue snipers vs 6/6 rockets and plasma, you're dead in 2-3 minutes if you're sorely outmatched and just move on. It's what I was talking about earlier in the other thread. Either I have a chance at winning, and both bots are enough, or there is 6/6 Plasma/RDBs or worse on the other team, drop, pop, move on. The upgrades are focused on 8 items instead of 20, and low cost gear is a joke to upgrade compared to heavies/premium weapons. Silver payout is equal or better than running heavies because of low repair costs. Even if I just took these two bots to 9 before adding another slot/bot, the time/cost of upgrading them will net more Au/Ag than being put in an unwinnable gauntlet using 4 heavies. Following Pixo's suggestions would have hangars in low silver close to mine, Old school advice and experience have them look closer to yours. Which looks more reasonable for new players to run into? Which one would losing to feel fair? And most importantly, which one looks like it belongs in the playing field that brand new players were just forced into?
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