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Post by Russel on Jul 10, 2017 9:51:36 GMT -5
Russel , good job! I was more than a week offline so the initial discussion is over, however it's never late to add my piece: I agree with almost all ideas save one. Upgrade weapons before bots (keep discrepancy no more than 2 levels though)
This is the rule most of folks swear on and one almost feels heretic to take such basic truth for discussion. However, it won't be the first time :) The point is, while I always nodded while reading the rule, I've ofted done THE OPPOSITE in my hangar. To be specific, after taking all the stuff to lvl 6, many bots go BEFORE weps to lvl 8-9. Why? Speed and durability are crucial for certain bots. Without this, they don't serve their purpose even though well armed. And it takes long time until you get to upgrading the bot while sticking to the rule. One by one (what I have experience with): Carnage:
- Bot lvl 6=>9: app. 5 d 17 hrs, 3.7 mil. Ag - Both weps lvl 6=>9: app. 10-12 d, app. 21-23 mil. Ag - This was a natural choice - bot 9 first, weps follow. Maybe I'm such a bad Carny pilot, but driving a 6/8 one would be probably a hell for me as I always needed the speed and durability to cross the distance to target. Could imagine the Zeus one, but definitely not the Thunder. Natasha:
- Bot 6-9: 3 d 3 hrs, 4.5 mil. Ag - Weps 6-9: app. 15-17 d, 32-36 mil. Ag - The bot is damned slow, lvl 6 doesn't get anywhere. Also, being a slow target means taking a lot of damage. While it is playable at lvl 6, the percentage of time and Ag needed to upgrade the bot compared to it's weaponry is so low that I'd recommend to get it at least to 8 before taking weps behind 6. Rhino & Griffin:- Bot 6-9: 5d 2 hrs, 8 mil. Ag - Weps 6-9: app. 13 d, app. 26 mil. Ag - Rhino is generally recommended to be used @ lvl 7+. For Griffin, lvl 6 does a good job with rocket setups (DB and RDB in my hangar followed the rule) but it's discutable for PDB. Galahad & Gareth:- intentionally left last as their importance has greatly decreased, however both bots needed their max speed to avoid rockets (soon to be over) and shield strength to resist the rest. Being not so strongly armed, the ratio bot/weps won't be that striking, however getting bots to lvl 8-9 first was a no-brainer for me. Don't have any experience with Fujin, Raijin and Lancelot that I suspect to be better with bot first approach. To make it clear, this note is only about lvl 6-9 area. Below lvl 6, everything goes fast & cheap so it doesn't matter that much. Behind lvl 9, I agree with the rule - weps first. Yeah, we enter a "grey zone" here, with personal preferences. While I see your point, my approach is different. Namely, I got level8 Carnage, Rogatka and Lancelot, all of them are not going up until weapons are at lvl9 The reason being: Carnage: speed and health are irrelevant for a Carny to my liking. My 2x9Thunders could rip Lance\Gareth\Galahad (smaller ones with shield, mind you) apart in no time, if I approach them cautiously and got first 2~3 seconds surprise attack. If I can't do that - it really doesn't matter if I got a tad of health more or less. Same with speed; I don't actually NEED speed for Canage, with 65 km/h Rush he can close up real fast. With lower level weapons. (yes, I tried that) every bot got time to acknowledge my presence and react accordingly, which usually results in LOTS of plasma. Natasha:I really hope you are talking of Natasha as of sniper. Because I can't think of worse knifer than a Natasha. Even Raijin is a better knifer. Even Ancile+Thunder one. It got no health, HUGE hitbox and no speed even at level9. So, if we talk about sniper - I have no sniper Natasha, but I can't see why additional 5 km/h would make a big difference, but if you say so - I would believe you here due to lack of sniping experience :-D Oh, and I think better option still is to get BLAZE Natasha; I recently won one, and I could tell you that with that skin she's a blast. Could easily outpace a Stalker :-D Rhino and Griffin:I was using RDB (when Tulu was shoot-wait-reload-shoot again) and Molot Griff, both stock level, now I use DB Griff, and can't see NEED to upgrade it higher than 8. With any setup you are not going anywhere, it's jump that can save a day, or a weapon once again. With PDB, in my opinion, the thing is the same. Once you are screwed you could only jump away or battle your way through. No +5 km/h would save a day for you. You WILL get an upper hand against another not upgraded PDB, but man, if your weapons are higher than his weapons - you will NOT need to outmanoeuvre (please correct my spelling here) enemy. Rhino, imho, should be run only in assault mode. And as you correctly stated, everything should be taken to lvl5~6 prior to normal use. And at lvl6 Rhnio is 43 km/h in assault mode, which is pretty decent compared to other heavies and even some mediums. Knights:While I totally agree with your initial statement (bots are underpowered), I can't agree with the outcome (which shows that different thinking human being think differently, how awesome is that? :-D ); namely I think it is of UTTER importance to get your tiny small weapon set as high as possible as soon as possible to event stand a chance in a fight. More than that, lack of health could be compensated with cornershooting, lack of speed could be compensated with patience and stealth, but lack of firepower could not be compensated :( As an example - cornershooting Galahad with nicely upgraded plasma could take out a slowly lumbering Taran\Ancile Lancelot; but, with the same range of plasma for both bots, high-level Galahad could not deal enough damage to a Lance with upgraded guns. Once you are in range for fire, Lance could rush for 50 km/h, and Galahad would EITHER put shield off, revealing it slim body to the Lance's Taran in vain efforts to outrun big guy (and will be exposed to 10 seconds of Taran fire, which is not nice), or would bring shield upfront and would be 10 km/h slower, receiving A LOT of damage while dealing next to none. Please note that abovesaid in this post is just my opinion, related to my gameplay. I am NOT saying that you are wrong. I appreciate and respect your opinion, and think it's valid. Listed here mine so that good people of the forum could read both and choose which one they tend to use more in their day-to-day battles.
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Post by Tatamat on Jul 11, 2017 1:08:25 GMT -5
Russel , While I see your point, my approach is different. Namely, I got level8 Carnage, Rogatka and Lancelot, all of them are not going up until weapons are at lvl9=>Lvl 8 is already a decent one. However, it's not clear from your post whether those three bots mentioned had weps of higher level even at bot lvl 6 (e.g. 6/8 Carny or Lance). Sure, it's about personal preferences. I also take fun factor into account (besides the effectivity question), and I find it definitely more funny to pilot a more maneuverable bot. To further explain the Carny: In some maps and situations I'm able to sneak up on somebody and hit him from tens of meters - that's great. However, this usually doesn't happen to me if the pilot is cautious (and sees my Ancile bar). In such situations, I often end up with both bots hiding @ 200-250 m. Then I have a choice - sit there for the rest of the game blocking each other (useless), give it up and retreat (and risk losing a beacon or later ambush) or head-on open attack. And this is when I need the speed & durability. If I can't get @ 100 m really fast and with some health remaining, it doesn't matter which lvl Thunders I have. Natasha: of course NOT brawler, those days are over though it was quite fun. I use Zeus+Molot now with a decent results. With higher speed, I usually change the initial sniping point - examples worth noting are - Springfield Shielded beacon attacked from hills @ 600 m (while reds defend against valley and I can also hide behind hills) - Canyon central beacon attacked from side - extra deadly as any red that loses patience and rushes towards me gets a salvo to his back from teammates hiding on our side - Dead city - the last bot, shooting from the overpass bridge. If I see that most of reds are at half HP, I jump down and take their side beacon (the firepower is usually enough to deal with interceptors), also covering the firing lane there - Yamantau - either down the bridge or move to central beacon, i.e. I can answer the enemy sniper fire or maim brawlers approaching center Need to underline that I don't claim my approach IS better, I only find it so (in some cases). Since we're talking about "upgrade weps first" as a universal rule, I found it fair to show an alternative approach that yields pretty good results. Being a physicist, I've been always taught that a rule shall either hold at all times, or display all limitations, boundary conditions or exceptions. So I honor my proffession
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Post by Russel on Jul 11, 2017 3:14:33 GMT -5
Russel , While I see your point, my approach is different. Namely, I got level8 Carnage, Rogatka and Lancelot, all of them are not going up until weapons are at lvl9=>Lvl 8 is already a decent one. However, it's not clear from your post whether those three bots mentioned had weps of higher level even at bot lvl 6 (e.g. 6/8 Carny or Lance). Sure, it's about personal preferences. I also take fun factor into account (besides the effectivity question), and I find it definitely more funny to pilot a more maneuverable bot. To further explain the Carny: In some maps and situations I'm able to sneak up on somebody and hit him from tens of meters - that's great. However, this usually doesn't happen to me if the pilot is cautious (and sees my Ancile bar). In such situations, I often end up with both bots hiding @ 200-250 m. Then I have a choice - sit there for the rest of the game blocking each other (useless), give it up and retreat (and risk losing a beacon or later ambush) or head-on open attack. And this is when I need the speed & durability. If I can't get @ 100 m really fast and with some health remaining, it doesn't matter which lvl Thunders I have. Natasha: of course NOT brawler, those days are over though it was quite fun. I use Zeus+Molot now with a decent results. With higher speed, I usually change the initial sniping point - examples worth noting are - Springfield Shielded beacon attacked from hills @ 600 m (while reds defend against valley and I can also hide behind hills) - Canyon central beacon attacked from side - extra deadly as any red that loses patience and rushes towards me gets a salvo to his back from teammates hiding on our side - Dead city - the last bot, shooting from the overpass bridge. If I see that most of reds are at half HP, I jump down and take their side beacon (the firepower is usually enough to deal with interceptors), also covering the firing lane there - Yamantau - either down the bridge or move to central beacon, i.e. I can answer the enemy sniper fire or maim brawlers approaching center Need to underline that I don't claim my approach IS better, I only find it so (in some cases). Since we're talking about "upgrade weps first" as a universal rule, I found it fair to show an alternative approach that yields pretty good results. Being a physicist, I've been always taught that a rule shall either hold at all times, or display all limitations, boundary conditions or exceptions. So I honor my proffession ;) Oh, it's nice to see a physicist here, cheers from the i.t. guy =) Technicians should stick together :-D In my example I got a lot of new bots from the Anniversary event, upgraded them to 2\3, slap some level 8\9 weapons I had (pinata, pins, thunders, magnums, tulumbas) as well as lvl5 ones (orkans, tulumbas, tarans, aphids) and started upgrading weapons first, as shocking as it sounds. And I could see the results were getting better as my Tulumbas went from 8\8\5\5\ to 9\9\7\8 on the same level4 Doc, as well as Tarans start dealing some damage at level6 while Lance remains level4. So it was a bit of both - some weapons were pre-upgraded from my previous hangar, and some was upgraded on the go. But it's not fun, imo, if bot\weapon discrepancy is more than 3 levels, so Carny got to level6 and then I though I should try "leap of death", so I upgraded it to have rush at 64+km/h Oh, and kudos for your Natty, I cry every time I see one with Thunders\Magnums. Only my light bots were killed by Thunder Natty. Moving on to the "rule" - compare this upgrade rules to: "You cannot divide by zero" from the school or "Do not drive faster than 60km/h" from the city driving guide. Both are, let's face it, oversimplified and utterly useless for a pro, but a good start for understanding the whole concept of the system. So if you ever wondered "wow, there are so many things to upgrade, what should I do first" - my guide won't let you down. But if you want to move your way and, importantly enough, KNOW WHY you are moving your way - then it's all good. Same as with "5th slot first" and your 4 slots, exactly ;)
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Post by imnobody on Jul 11, 2017 4:00:12 GMT -5
Great post. I wouldn't take any consideration using any of your advice. Getting pass level 8 will take all out of your whole entire life span before you know it. Trying to figure a math problem upgrading multiple lower tier to equal to one level 8 or above is irrelevant. You can throw that idea out of the window. Because at this point you want max your item out and go back in reverse pointless. Upgrading lower times could of been saved towards your higher tier item.
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Post by WilsonK on Jul 11, 2017 4:02:16 GMT -5
Kudos to all the effort put into this thread Russel ! Although I do have to mention too, is that under your Basic Stuff... 10) WARNING: It is VERY easy to misclick and finish upgrade for gold, be aware of it and DO NOT TOUCH UPPER CENTER SIDE OF THE SCREEN. I LOL-ED SO HARD MY BABY STALKERS ARE RUNNING ALL OVER!! For those poor souls that have accidentally pressed before, fret not, grind the gold back!
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Post by Russel on Jul 11, 2017 4:49:47 GMT -5
Kudos to all the effort put into this thread Russel ! Although I do have to mention too, is that under your Basic Stuff... 10) WARNING: It is VERY easy to misclick and finish upgrade for gold, be aware of it and DO NOT TOUCH UPPER CENTER SIDE OF THE SCREEN. I LOL-ED SO HARD MY BABY STALKERS ARE RUNNING ALL OVER!! For those poor souls that have accidentally pressed before, fret not, grind the gold back! (rofl) (rofl) (rofl) Well, I guess I am the king of misclick, so what you read is a pain put in a words. During anniversary event I won ~9000+ gold, and decided "just to get that another last roll" - guess what, I was driving and holding my phone in my hand, so I naturally misclicked and press "OPEN 「dookie」LOAD OF CHESTS FOR ALL MY GOLD". That's where my 7 gekkos, 5 Zeuses and 4 Gepards are coming from. Fast forward, last month I woke up at 6 am and though "wow, I couldn't wake up so early, let me just check Ancile upgrade reeeeeal quick" and I got a grip of the phone the wrong way - TADA!! Your Ancile upgrade is finished pre-emptively for cheap. That's the story behind the 10th tip, basically :-D P.s. oh, and notice how when you START upgrade you got kind of confirmation window (you press "Upgrade", then the window with price\time\gained damage is shown), but NO button that allow you to spend gold ever got the confirmation. Coming from UI design\testing department I'd say it was made intentional =)
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Post by WilsonK on Jul 11, 2017 21:36:29 GMT -5
Kudos to all the effort put into this thread Russel ! Although I do have to mention too, is that under your Basic Stuff... 10) WARNING: It is VERY easy to misclick and finish upgrade for gold, be aware of it and DO NOT TOUCH UPPER CENTER SIDE OF THE SCREEN. I LOL-ED SO HARD MY BABY STALKERS ARE RUNNING ALL OVER!! For those poor souls that have accidentally pressed before, fret not, grind the gold back! Well, I guess I am the king of misclick, so what you read is a pain put in a words. During anniversary event I won ~9000+ gold, and decided "just to get that another last roll" - guess what, I was driving and holding my phone in my hand, so I naturally misclicked and press "OPEN ?poo-poo?LOAD OF CHESTS FOR ALL MY GOLD". That's where my 7 gekkos, 5 Zeuses and 4 Gepards are coming from. Fast forward, last month I woke up at 6 am and though "wow, I couldn't wake up so early, let me just check Ancile upgrade reeeeeal quick" and I got a grip of the phone the wrong way - TADA!! Your Ancile upgrade is finished pre-emptively for cheap. That's the story behind the 10th tip, basically :-D P.s. oh, and notice how when you START upgrade you got kind of confirmation window (you press "Upgrade", then the window with price\time\gained damage is shown), but NO button that allow you to spend gold ever got the confirmation. Coming from UI design\testing department I'd say it was made intentional =) HAHAHAHA ever since I first noticed the speeding up of upgrades, I am always ensuring that I do not press my screen by accident if i'm not looking! There have been a few times i accidentally pressed "TO BATTLE" though!
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Post by T34 on Jul 12, 2017 0:29:18 GMT -5
Russel I'm a LQ Champion, so it doesn't count! Once a champ - always a champ Honestly I would like to hear how gameplay in LQ differs from the regular stuff. I got some assumptions that it's really a lot easier, because if match is tough - everybody is leaving, and it become easier. Though, only my speculations. Do you know you can check it out yourself rather easily. Just keep abounding battles :-) But kidding aside, you can always use a secondary account and just leave the battles til you end up in the LQ. once there you can participate or just watch what goes on.
and since you have an open mind it would be interesting to hear your take on things.
the challenge is on Russel!!!
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 2:27:30 GMT -5
Once a champ - always a champ ;) Honestly I would like to hear how gameplay in LQ differs from the regular stuff. I got some assumptions that it's really a lot easier, because if match is tough - everybody is leaving, and it become easier. Though, only my speculations. Do you know you can check it out yourself rather easily. Just keep abounding battles :-) But kidding aside, you can always use a secondary account and just leave the battles til you end up in the LQ. once there you can participate or just watch what goes on.
and since you have an open mind it would be interesting to hear your take on things.
the challenge is on Russel!!!
I would need tons of equipment on my second account, this is definitely not fitting into my schedule now :( But I got an idea to get there on my main account, believe it won't be hard to get back if I am not too agitated at leaving matches. However, this would happen long after the event.
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Post by T34 on Jul 12, 2017 17:12:19 GMT -5
Do you know you can check it out yourself rather easily. Just keep abounding battles :-) But kidding aside, you can always use a secondary account and just leave the battles til you end up in the LQ. once there you can participate or just watch what goes on.
and since you have an open mind it would be interesting to hear your take on things.
the challenge is on Russel!!!
I would need tons of equipment on my second account, this is definitely not fitting into my schedule now But I got an idea to get there on my main account, believe it won't be hard to get back if I am not too agitated at leaving matches. However, this would happen long after the event. don't use ur main account. too risky as pix constantly changes things. even with a level 1 account u can see what is going on. just keep watching once you mech out
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 17:33:45 GMT -5
I would need tons of equipment on my second account, this is definitely not fitting into my schedule now :( But I got an idea to get there on my main account, believe it won't be hard to get back if I am not too agitated at leaving matches. However, this would happen long after the event. don't use ur main account. too risky as pix constantly changes things. even with a level 1 account u can see what is going on. just keep watching once you mech out Well, it's just a game, right? ;) BTW, I never keep watching a game after mech out. Made ~500 games this event, and still not in LQ. However it seems that after update it is ("would be", for iOS) harder to get TO leaver's queue.
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Post by T34 on Jul 12, 2017 23:06:01 GMT -5
don't use ur main account. too risky as pix constantly changes things. even with a level 1 account u can see what is going on. just keep watching once you mech out Well, it's just a game, right? BTW, I never keep watching a game after mech out. Made ~500 games this event, and still not in LQ. However it seems that after update it is ("would be", for iOS) harder to get TO leaver's queue. something definitely changed wrt getting into the LQ. it takes much longer now. I am sort of getting a bit tired of trying to get in with my secondary account and its just not happening. maybe with all the changes in the MM in the NQ (ie, MM is very similar to that in the LQ) the LQ may have a limited life span. another change that is not publicised. i'd say most tankers (like 99%+) tnak in the LQ and if there is no more LQ guess what.
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Post by Russel on Jul 13, 2017 4:31:27 GMT -5
Well, it's just a game, right? ;) BTW, I never keep watching a game after mech out. Made ~500 games this event, and still not in LQ. However it seems that after update it is ("would be", for iOS) harder to get TO leaver's queue. something definitely changed wrt getting into the LQ. it takes much longer now. I am sort of getting a bit tired of trying to get in with my secondary account and its just not happening. maybe with all the changes in the MM in the NQ (ie, MM is very similar to that in the LQ) the LQ may have a limited life span. another change that is not publicised. i'd say most tankers (like 99%+) tnak in the LQ and if there is no more LQ guess what. Some say that to get into LQ you need to skip 90 matches straight.
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Post by T34 on Jul 13, 2017 5:18:03 GMT -5
something definitely changed wrt getting into the LQ. it takes much longer now. I am sort of getting a bit tired of trying to get in with my secondary account and its just not happening. maybe with all the changes in the MM in the NQ (ie, MM is very similar to that in the LQ) the LQ may have a limited life span. another change that is not publicised. i'd say most tankers (like 99%+) tnak in the LQ and if there is no more LQ guess what. Some say that to get into LQ you need to skip 90 matches straight. Well some say that's a lot of free tanking. Wonder where Pix is going with this. Ps. Jeremy gone a long time ago
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Post by Russel on Jul 13, 2017 6:40:53 GMT -5
Some say that to get into LQ you need to skip 90 matches straight. Well some say that's a lot of free tanking. Wonder where Pix is going with this. Ps. Jeremy gone a long time ago ;) Why would you say so? They are filming second season already.
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Post by Russel on Jul 16, 2017 6:40:26 GMT -5
Just chiming in to bring some pictures illustrating point of "weapons before bots". You can see that with higher level weapons even the guy with 4 slots able to get higher average and maximum damage total, as well as "max destroyed". Though he is not very experienced player (only 420 wins) Although I won't really count "average" as an indication, because most probably with 2613 wins the guy is just tanking, but maximum as well as total destroyed are good indicators. And I was able to get 1mil with 8\9 weapons - my Orkans were at lvl 8 at that moment, and the Rog was at 7
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