ancileshutze
Recruit
you better run better run, outrun my thunders, all the other kids with the pumped up griffs
Posts: 9
Karma: 11
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Post by ancileshutze on Jun 17, 2017 0:44:32 GMT -5
The solution to the match making thing is easy. Just make better silver and gold rewards for each league... then people will have no need to tank and club. It just won't be worth it! Having league points as the only incentive is stupid, we the players want cash. EVERY SYSTEM is exploitable, so just make a system where it isn't profitable to exploit.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 1:04:28 GMT -5
The solution to the match making thing is easy. Just make better silver and gold rewards for each league... then people will have no need to tank and club. It just won't be worth it! Having league points as the only incentive is stupid, we the players want cash. EVERY SYSTEM is exploitable, so just make a system where it isn't profitable to exploit. Lets assume that %5 tank to gain silver and gold. How much do you have to give to EVERYONE to convince these players to change their behavior? What other impacts would that have? Less premium sales maybe). Gold can be redistributed (every winner gets some gold) but that creates a different set of problems (fading would be rampant), but it is solvable, however people would whine about that as well. Even if there isn't a cash incentive to tank, there are people who are going to do it just because they can.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 1:13:07 GMT -5
While there are still some that "Tank," most are now honest Players being forced downwards due to the Points system.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 1:17:55 GMT -5
While there are still some that "Tank," most are now honest Players being forced downwards due to the Points system. The points system doesn't "force you down" at all If your going down it is because you DONT BELONG where you are. That might be bots, that might be skill that might be you having a bad day, or a run of bad games. It is very easy to elevate yourself with POWER alone in the current system. However, it isn't going to be satisfying because that isn't a sustainable strategy.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 1:26:46 GMT -5
While there are still some that "Tank," most are now honest Players being forced downwards due to the Points system. The points system doesn't "force you down" at all If your going down it is because you DONT BELONG where you are. That might be bots, that might be skill that might be you having a bad day, or a run of bad games. It is very easy to elevate yourself with POWER alone in the current system. However, it isn't going to be satisfying because that isn't a sustainable strategy. Care to explain how Players maintained their Standings and now suddenly they are down, not just Tiers but complete Leagues..? Or how I can go back and forth between S-1 and S-2? The Scoring system is designed to fail. -22 for a Loss vs. +13 for a Win is pretty self-evident ..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 1:28:30 GMT -5
The answer to the first question would be yes.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 1:36:54 GMT -5
The points system doesn't "force you down" at all If your going down it is because you DONT BELONG where you are. That might be bots, that might be skill that might be you having a bad day, or a run of bad games. It is very easy to elevate yourself with POWER alone in the current system. However, it isn't going to be satisfying because that isn't a sustainable strategy. Care to explain how Players maintained their Standings and now suddenly they are down, not just Tiers but complete Leagues..? Or how I can go back and forth between S-1 and S-2? The Scoring system is designed to fail. -22 for a Loss vs. +13 for a Win is pretty self-evident .. > bots, skill (or lack there of), luck.... Silver is where all the points that champs eat are born into War Robots, so it can be volatile. Post a fresh hanger screen shot and maybe the answer becomes evident.
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Post by Dredd77 on Jun 17, 2017 1:59:49 GMT -5
Moved to Rants. With a title like that, the post could've been Shakespeare and it would get punted.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 2:09:20 GMT -5
Care to explain how Players maintained their Standings and now suddenly they are down, not just Tiers but complete Leagues..? Or how I can go back and forth between S-1 and S-2? The Scoring system is designed to fail. -22 for a Loss vs. +13 for a Win is pretty self-evident .. > bots, skill (or lack there of), luck.... Silver is where all the points that champs eat are born into War Robots, so it can be volatile. Post a fresh hanger screen shot and maybe the answer becomes evident. There is no stabilization. So, ignore the plethora of empirical data gathered by Players .. Right, OK, No worries ..
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 2:22:50 GMT -5
> bots, skill (or lack there of), luck.... Silver is where all the points that champs eat are born into War Robots, so it can be volatile. Post a fresh hanger screen shot and maybe the answer becomes evident. There is no stabilization. So, ignore the plethora of empirical data gathered by Players .. Right, OK, No worries .. I haven't seen much imperial data from players since 2.9. I haven't felt the need to collect any myself, because the current system opened up "win rate" as a meaningful stat again, and to be frank, mine is stupid high. Maybe you have a hanger that you have pushed PAST where you should be, maybe you are underperforming... maybe your hitting a run of bad luck. It is hard to tell but a screen shot says "I want to fix it"...
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 2:42:01 GMT -5
There is no stabilization. So, ignore the plethora of empirical data gathered by Players .. Right, OK, No worries .. I haven't seen much imperial data from players since 2.9. I haven't felt the need to collect any myself, because the current system opened up "win rate" as a meaningful stat again, and to be frank, mine is stupid high. Maybe you have a hanger that you have pushed PAST where you should be, maybe you are underperforming... maybe your hitting a run of bad luck. It is hard to tell but a screen shot says "I want to fix it"... Honestly, it's not my Hangar. My average damage continues to climb. I regularly exceed +400k, often +500k. The point I'm inferring is the Scroring system treats everyone as a Champion, by deducting maximum Points for a Loss. An Elo system requires that the Points gained and lost are commensurate with the Players position - A Champion should only gain +2 Points for defeating Bronze, while Bronze should gain +22 Points for defeating a Champion. Same for Loss - A Bronze would only Lose -2 Points against a Champion, while a Champion would Lose -22 Points for being defeated by a Bronze. That is how " Elo" works ..
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 3:33:19 GMT -5
I haven't seen much imperial data from players since 2.9. I haven't felt the need to collect any myself, because the current system opened up "win rate" as a meaningful stat again, and to be frank, mine is stupid high. Maybe you have a hanger that you have pushed PAST where you should be, maybe you are underperforming... maybe your hitting a run of bad luck. It is hard to tell but a screen shot says "I want to fix it"... Honestly, it's not my Hangar. My average damage continues to climb. I regularly exceed +400k, often +500k. The point I'm inferring is the Scroring system treats everyone as a Champion, by deducting maximum Points for a Loss. An Elo system requires that the Points gained and lost are commensurate with the Players position - A Champion should only gain +2 Points for defeating Bronze, while Bronze should gain +22 Points for defeating a Champion. Same for Loss - A Bronze would only Lose -2 Points against a Champion, while a Champion would Lose -22 Points for being defeated by a Bronze. That is how " Elo" works .. Though you are correct from an ELO perspective, it wouldn't be very gratifying for players in bronze to face champs. The power gap there is so immense that no amount of points offsets for the losses that would accumulate. And those power gaps are why the points are distributed the way they are, you want to push power up quickly (and need to because it can change so often). If you are yo yo'ing badly, (200 points) without gear changes then something is amiss, play style, might be a big factor there. focusing on damage above winning is going to get you promoted but won't keep you there as you can climb to a more "level" playing field in relation to your power.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 3:42:21 GMT -5
Honestly, it's not my Hangar. My average damage continues to climb. I regularly exceed +400k, often +500k. The point I'm inferring is the Scroring system treats everyone as a Champion, by deducting maximum Points for a Loss. An Elo system requires that the Points gained and lost are commensurate with the Players position - A Champion should only gain +2 Points for defeating Bronze, while Bronze should gain +22 Points for defeating a Champion. Same for Loss - A Bronze would only Lose -2 Points against a Champion, while a Champion would Lose -22 Points for being defeated by a Bronze. That is how " Elo" works .. Though you are correct from an ELO perspective, it wouldn't be very gratifying for players in bronze to face champs. The power gap there is so immense that no amount of points offsets for the losses that would accumulate. And those power gaps are why the points are distributed the way they are, you want to push power up quickly (and need to because it can change so often). If you are yo yo'ing badly, (200 points) without gear changes then something is amiss, play style, might be a big factor there. focusing on damage above winning is going to get you promoted but won't keep you there as you can climb to a more "level" playing field in relation to your power. The main point of it all, is that Elo is a valid system for 1v1. It cannot account for multiple participants. Elo, I'm afraid is not viable in a multiplayer environment. A League Scoring is necessary. You should earn Points for Winning. No Points for Losing and split Points for Ties. It forces top Players to the Top and balances a Players Skill vs. Equipment.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 3:57:27 GMT -5
Though you are correct from an ELO perspective, it wouldn't be very gratifying for players in bronze to face champs. The power gap there is so immense that no amount of points offsets for the losses that would accumulate. And those power gaps are why the points are distributed the way they are, you want to push power up quickly (and need to because it can change so often). If you are yo yo'ing badly, (200 points) without gear changes then something is amiss, play style, might be a big factor there. focusing on damage above winning is going to get you promoted but won't keep you there as you can climb to a more "level" playing field in relation to your power. The main point of it all, is that Elo is a valid system for 1v1. It cannot account for multiple participants. Elo, I'm afraid is not viable in a multiplayer environment. A League Scoring is necessary. You should earn Points for Winning. No Points for Losing and split Points for Ties. It forces top Players to the Top and balances a Players Skill vs. Equipment. Ok, two things: ELO seems to be working well in a lot of other team games. The majority of those don't have the massive power disparity that War Robots has. Our ELO has to factor in power (and how it is applied). The current scoring weights to power. If it doesn't weight to power (ala pre 2.9) and weights to winning, then It will demote you till your power normalizes against your winning. If we gave 10 points to winners (all of them) and -10 points to losers (all of them) the system would break down rather quickly because there would be no weighting on power.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 4:04:28 GMT -5
The main point of it all, is that Elo is a valid system for 1v1. It cannot account for multiple participants. Elo, I'm afraid is not viable in a multiplayer environment. A League Scoring is necessary. You should earn Points for Winning. No Points for Losing and split Points for Ties. It forces top Players to the Top and balances a Players Skill vs. Equipment. Ok, two things: ELO seems to be working well in a lot of other team games. The majority of those don't have the massive power disparity that War Robots has. Our ELO has to factor in power (and how it is applied). The current scoring weights to power. If it doesn't weight to power (ala pre 2.9) and weights to winning, then It will demote you till your power normalizes against your winning. If we gave 10 points to winners (all of them) and -10 points to losers (all of them) the system would break down rather quickly because there would be no weighting on power. Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 17, 2017 4:34:00 GMT -5
Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None. First of all, that system will just cause points inflation, and thats already a problem in ELO one that is harder to correct. It is a non starter cause the math doesn't work. Second, sure ELO can work for teams... assuming we all had the same bot (no power differences). Where ELO can make a points determination in a single game, team ELO needs a larger sample size (more games) --- Think of it this way, if bots and skills were equal in a pool of players you could pick teams randomly, winning and loosing randomly, and then placement randomly. At first we might see some players form an advantage, but over time those early leads would slip away and things would normalize. This concept is how a lot of statistical modeling works. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers if you want to read the math behind this.
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Post by ΒΣRΖΣRKΛ²³ on Jun 17, 2017 4:55:51 GMT -5
Ok, two things: ELO seems to be working well in a lot of other team games. The majority of those don't have the massive power disparity that War Robots has. Our ELO has to factor in power (and how it is applied). The current scoring weights to power. If it doesn't weight to power (ala pre 2.9) and weights to winning, then It will demote you till your power normalizes against your winning. If we gave 10 points to winners (all of them) and -10 points to losers (all of them) the system would break down rather quickly because there would be no weighting on power. Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None. Get competitive man..no damn ties. Ties are for sorry losers. No 6 vs 6 performances can ever be EXACTLY equal. so there's winners and there is losers. And if you ain't winning don't blame the system, don't cry for ties but lose you damn league points like a man and get good. Just Accept the system and learn what you need to do. It's on you, not the system.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 5:09:25 GMT -5
Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None. First of all, that system will just cause points inflation, and thats already a problem in ELO one that is harder to correct. It is a non starter cause the math doesn't work. Second, sure ELO can work for teams... assuming we all had the same bot (no power differences). Where ELO can make a points determination in a single game, team ELO needs a larger sample size (more games) --- Think of it this way, if bots and skills were equal in a pool of players you could pick teams randomly, winning and loosing randomly, and then placement randomly. At first we might see some players form an advantage, but over time those early leads would slip away and things would normalize. This concept is how a lot of statistical modeling works. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers if you want to read the math behind this. You do realize that your last paragraph is Why, exactly, League Points work for multiple participants - Leagues, right? Elo is designed around 1v1, only. It doesn't matter how large a group you "sample," it's not Elo's intended purpose. Using Elo in a 1v1 a 1/1 Mecha should have a 64% chance of Losing against a 12/12 Mecha. The 12/12 Mecha only has a 74% chance of Winning. Do you see the inherent flaws in Elo with multiplayer? 6×12/12 vs 6×1/1 has a 24% chance to Lose. That cannot be accounted for using Elo. Therefore, it must be artificially induced. Hence Win/Loss streaks. A proper League Scoring system must implemented using Win/Loss/Tie - +10/0/+5. It normalizes the Ranking and places Players appropriately.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 5:14:39 GMT -5
Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None. Get competitive man..no damn ties. Ties are for sorry losers. No 6 vs 6 performances can ever be EXACTLY equal. so there's winners and there is losers. And if you ain't winning don't blame the system, don't cry for ties but lose you damn league points like a man and get good. Just Accept the system and learn what you need to do. It's on you, not the system. "Ties" mean you are just as good as your Opponent. Why should You Lose if you're just as Good? That means your Opponent Won because..?
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Post by Thunderkiss on Jun 17, 2017 9:02:45 GMT -5
Ok, two things: ELO seems to be working well in a lot of other team games. The majority of those don't have the massive power disparity that War Robots has. Our ELO has to factor in power (and how it is applied). The current scoring weights to power. If it doesn't weight to power (ala pre 2.9) and weights to winning, then It will demote you till your power normalizes against your winning. If we gave 10 points to winners (all of them) and -10 points to losers (all of them) the system would break down rather quickly because there would be no weighting on power. Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None. The imbalance is that what you wrote above is not a zero sum game, it has points inflation baked right in. It would never work, everyone would be in champion league.
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Post by amidf on Jun 17, 2017 9:35:26 GMT -5
I haven't seen much imperial data from players since 2.9. I haven't felt the need to collect any myself, because the current system opened up "win rate" as a meaningful stat again, and to be frank, mine is stupid high. Maybe you have a hanger that you have pushed PAST where you should be, maybe you are underperforming... maybe your hitting a run of bad luck. It is hard to tell but a screen shot says "I want to fix it"... Honestly, it's not my Hangar. My average damage continues to climb. I regularly exceed +400k, often +500k. The point I'm inferring is the Scroring system treats everyone as a Champion, by deducting maximum Points for a Loss. An Elo system requires that the Points gained and lost are commensurate with the Players position - A Champion should only gain +2 Points for defeating Bronze, while Bronze should gain +22 Points for defeating a Champion. Same for Loss - A Bronze would only Lose -2 Points against a Champion, while a Champion would Lose -22 Points for being defeated by a Bronze. That is how " Elo" works .. Are you still running that Vityaz? -Amid
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Post by bilbobaggins on Jun 17, 2017 9:38:00 GMT -5
The solution to the match making thing is easy. Just make better silver and gold rewards for each league... then people will have no need to tank and club. It just won't be worth it! Having league points as the only incentive is stupid, we the players want cash. EVERY SYSTEM is exploitable, so just make a system where it isn't profitable to exploit. "Gimme, gimme, gimme"... that's all I read.
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 12:35:31 GMT -5
Honestly, it's not my Hangar. My average damage continues to climb. I regularly exceed +400k, often +500k. The point I'm inferring is the Scroring system treats everyone as a Champion, by deducting maximum Points for a Loss. An Elo system requires that the Points gained and lost are commensurate with the Players position - A Champion should only gain +2 Points for defeating Bronze, while Bronze should gain +22 Points for defeating a Champion. Same for Loss - A Bronze would only Lose -2 Points against a Champion, while a Champion would Lose -22 Points for being defeated by a Bronze. That is how " Elo" works .. Are you still running that Vityaz? -Amid Sure am .. Love that guy lol
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Post by Firebeard on Jun 17, 2017 12:39:43 GMT -5
Why would there be a -10 Point deficit? Win: +10 Lose: 0 Tie: +5 Where is the imbalance? .. and No multiplayer Elo system works - None. The imbalance is that what you wrote above is not a zero sum game, it has points inflation baked right in. It would never work, everyone would be in champion league. Actually, No. At some point a Player would stall and stop earning points until they can Upgrade, form better strategies, etc... It's a valid system that works. Tried and Tested for more than 250 years lol
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Post by amidf on Jun 17, 2017 13:08:55 GMT -5
The imbalance is that what you wrote above is not a zero sum game, it has points inflation baked right in. It would never work, everyone would be in champion league. Actually, No. At some point a Player would stall and stop earning points until they can Upgrade, form better strategies, etc... It's a valid system that works. Tried and Tested for more than 250 years lol By stall, you mean they never win again? There's no points being exchanged in your system. It's like printing new money for every transaction. -Amid
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Post by ΒΣRΖΣRKΛ²³ on Jun 17, 2017 13:16:47 GMT -5
The imbalance is that what you wrote above is not a zero sum game, it has points inflation baked right in. It would never work, everyone would be in champion league. Actually, No. At some point a Player would stall and stop earning points until they can Upgrade, form better strategies, etc... It's a valid system that works. Tried and Tested for more than 250 years lol Where has this been tried and tested? I already know: totally different circumstances. It just doesn't work your way. Think about it: I got a 12/12 hangar, but I don't play very much. So everybody that plays more passes me. So I'll face opponents that just started the game: in my 12/12 whatever I just blast them to scrap metal in the blink of an eye. And the most active players move to the top. Skill doesn't matter, hangar doesn't matter, just how much they play. Guaranteed recipe for bad and unbalanced gameplay.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Jun 17, 2017 19:21:53 GMT -5
The imbalance is that what you wrote above is not a zero sum game, it has points inflation baked right in. It would never work, everyone would be in champion league. Actually, No. At some point a Player would stall and stop earning points until they can Upgrade, form better strategies, etc... It's a valid system that works. Tried and Tested for more than 250 years lol Ummm, yeah, too bad this isn't chess, sooooooo, no. It HAS to be zero sum, otherwise everyone would be champion league.
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Post by amidf on Jun 17, 2017 21:04:14 GMT -5
Where has this been tried and tested? I already know: totally different circumstances. It just doesn't work your way. Think about it: I got a 12/12 hangar, but I don't play very much. So everybody that plays more passes me. So I'll face opponents that just started the game: in my 12/12 whatever I just blast them to scrap metal in the blink of an eye. And the most active players move to the top. Skill doesn't matter, hangar doesn't matter, just how much they play. Guaranteed recipe for bad and unbalanced gameplay. Yes, but other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the proposed new scoring system? -Amid With apologies to those outside the U.S.
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Post by ΒΣRΖΣRKΛ²³ on Jun 17, 2017 21:23:42 GMT -5
Where has this been tried and tested? I already know: totally different circumstances. It just doesn't work your way. Think about it: I got a 12/12 hangar, but I don't play very much. So everybody that plays more passes me. So I'll face opponents that just started the game: in my 12/12 whatever I just blast them to scrap metal in the blink of an eye. And the most active players move to the top. Skill doesn't matter, hangar doesn't matter, just how much they play. Guaranteed recipe for bad and unbalanced gameplay. Yes, but other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the proposed new scoring system? -Amid With apologies to those outside the U.S. Errr..what?
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Post by amidf on Jun 17, 2017 22:32:33 GMT -5
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