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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 23:28:02 GMT -5
Far too often, I see many players who only know one direction: forward.
Lateral movements are an important part of tact and field navigation that one absolutely needs to learn in arena games. Sometimes moving sideways is more important than pushing forward, the key to personal advancement is being able to key in on which of these actions will be the most beneficial.
It's difficult to give a simile to how positioning and movements create an ebb and flow in a game like this without directly comparing each battle field to an actual war map. The maps are dynamic enough for each one to have a distinct feel, so as a single playbook is not applicable to all of them.
I find it's best to picture the battlefield as if each player has an "area of affluence" or Area of Effect (AoE will be used hereafter), with the team's total area of effect constituting a "line". People ignoring these factors are often those that get nailed by two or three snipers/midrange while running off alone.
These concepts are much harder to use in random matches, so, the more educated the individual player, the better one can assess the field to be where they need to be, instead of where they want to be.
Ranges, Roles, and AoE:
Close Range:(<350M):
Beacon Runner/Scout: Scouts have a very small area of effect as their goal is mobility oriented first, and they are opportunity driven. They can be greatly underestimated on the battlefield because they are notoriously susceptible to damage, but, if played correctly, can be a very large factor on the battlefield.
Bots: Orkan Rogatka Magnum Stalker Pinata Stalker Ork/Pinata Gareth Plasma Gareth Pinata Jesse
Pros: Mobility:60kmph+ allows them to get to where they can be used effectively.
Rocket Dodging: these bots have the easiest time backpedaling 300M rockets at full speed. The Rogatka adds to this by being able to avoid 500M rockets with it's jump ability, if the jump is used to obscure the rocket's travel path and land adequately behind cover, it can completely avoid the threat.
Cons: Low durability: definitely not a bot to use for head on engagements.
Low firepower
Field role: These bots are usually used in two ways
-A throwaway bot at the start of a match: these bots act as the spear point to gain an early beacon advantage, serving as distractions during the initial rush.
-Bacon stealer: these bots rush undefended beacons, dividing the opposing force, or negating a beacon push by taking the opposite side of the map as an opposing team's hail Mary.
Positional awareness: Beacon Runners want to stay out of the AoE, and general sight lines of snipers and mid range, but they need to do so while constantly moving. Sometimes retreating into friendly territory is the best thing to do(I don't see this nearly enough), sometimes being where no one else is, is being the best asset on the board. Flanking is king because fighting anything focusing you is almost certain death.
Power runners(quasi-brawlers): These bots have a small area of effect, but a very distinguished one determined by their weapons. Mixing Mobility, durability, and firepower, these bots are suited for a variety of roles that are not exclusively damage dealing or beacon capture/defense.
Bots: Taran/Magnum Galahad Orkan/Pinata Galahad Magnum/Orkan Rhino Aphid/Orkan Rhino Thunder Carnage
Pros: -Excellent firepower for their durability and mobility.
Cons: -Extremely vulnerable to Mid-range
Field role: These bots have a lot going for them, they can travel to where they need to be with relative ease, and take a beating while doling one out.
-Brawler: one of the two classes that can be used as main damage dealers, these bots can chase down and destroy other bots that are disadvantaged against their weapon or defense type.
-Flanker: Ambushing unaware enemies, and laying down damage to preoccupied does.
-Beacon capture AND defense:
Positional awareness: I notice many players are too aggressive with these bots, often running into situations where their specialties are moot. Midrange and snipers are the biggest downfalls of these bots, adding on to their inherent weaknesas to certain kinds of munitions. Sometimes it's better to let your enemy come to you, especially when the enemy's position is in areas that have a high probability of being a mid-range bot's firing lane.
Death Button(True knife fighters): knife fighters are the bots that we often attribute to being a sort of "Death button". They usually have a slightly larger AoE than their weapon range would suggest, because most other bots will give them a wide berth unless they are another death button looking to lock horns. Firefights are short and straight to the point, usually lasting less than ten seconds. Thunder wielding Lancelots also falls into this category.
Bots: Magnum/Taran Griffin Orkan/Pinata Griffin Magnum/Taran Rhino Orkan/Pinata Rhino Thunder/Orkan Lance Thunder/Taran Lance Orkan/Aphid Griffin Taran/Aphid Griffin
Subclass:Tank (trades 1/3rd of damage in exchange for becoming a bullet sponge) Ancile Aphid Leo Ancile Magnum Leo Ancile Taran Lancelot Ancile Orkan Lancelot
Pros: -Highest damage rates/totals in the game
Cons: -Slow
-vulnerable to mid-range and long-range
Field Roles: These bots are meant to end confrontations quickly, but their limited range can give each one a varying degree of difficulty with getting to an effective position for their payload to make some money-shots.
-Brawler: These are the only bots that can take the simplest form of: "Kill or be killed" to heart. They require varying degrees of exposure time to enemy fire, so every shot counts.
-Flanker: This role is less subtle when done by a knife fighter, as the opportunities for flanking with non-aphid wielding variants often comes from melting a different Red to get to that desired position.
Positional awareness: as a Death Button, you are SLOW. Mid range is the enemy, avoiding them like the plague is key to a successful approach. Know your angles and pick your travel lanes wisely, as charging down the most convenient might mean tasting tulumbas and tridents as you look up at your smoke trail. There are way too many players that are too impatient. If you let your opponents decide where you fight, your victory is not assured, however, the other way around can guarantee your opponent a swift death.
Mid range:(350-600M)
Direct Support:These mid-range platforms are mobile, often serving as shadows to Power Runners and Knife fighters.They have a moderate AoE,and can deliver several bursts in short periods.
Bots: Pin/Tulumbas Griffin Tulumbas Doc Tulumbas Fujin Zeus Carnage Trident Carnage
Pros: -Respectable damage in a small period of time -Agile enough to Zone effectively
Cons: -Knife fighters and power runners will dedicate their life to ending yours as quickly as possible.
Field Role: Direct support mid-rangers are tasked with zone control for their bulkier, scarier close range counterparts. Quick to take pot shots at anything your close range partner may come in contact with, and preventing enemy flanks (by graciously pointing them out with your munitions) are the name of the game.
Positional awareness: While the direct-mid role is, by accessory, close to where all of the action is, I notice a lot of people over-step the capabilities of their bot by putting them in situations that do not take advantage of their range (newbie Griffin pilot's are very guilty of this). Having better range does not abscond you from judicial use of terrain and cover, keep that in mind. Zone control is king, and sometimes changing lateral lanes, or retreating a few meters is the difference between a dead red, and getting ham-fisted by a brawler you left unchecked for too long.
Pure Zone control: I spoke earlier of a "line", the AoE of this class of bot is often the very faithful, or painful, indicator of where that line stands. Two direct support mid-rangers working in tandem can fill this role, but the bots in this category are high priority targets, to defend when friendly, to destroy as quickly as possible when spotted on the enemy line.
Bots: Trident Fury Zeus Fury Trident/Pin Natasha Zeus/Gekko Natasha
Pros: -Highest burst damage for it's range class
Cons: -Slow, and somewhat defenseless between volleys
Field Role: I named them this because there was no fancy way to describe them. These bots are meant for area denial, two of them working in tandem with supplementary munition types can effectively secure whatever area they have in their line of sight. They have enough firepower to retaliate against anything wounded by your friendly knife fighters or power runners, and aim to shut down whatever fire lane they chose to cover.
Positional Awareness: as your main purpose is to secure a safe zone for your allies to retreat to, you'll need to memorize the vantage points along all of the maps that you can capitalize on. I say all of them, because the biggest bad habit I've seen with these Behemoths, is when the person piloting them does not know when to move up, or move back. These sets can be considered campy, but they're effective. There are at least 4 points on each side of every map that a Pure Zone control midranger should know. They are: -Where they should be in the event of an approaching spawn raid
-Where they should be when center control is contested
-Where they should be when Center control is in their favor
-where they should be when the enemy team is pushed to their spawn.
Long Range:(600M-1100M)
Artillery: Is currently bad, and you shouldn't play it unless you know the layout of every map like the back of your eyelids, every control spot midranger will take, and every fox whole that runner classes will stop at.
Sniper: Snipers are the opposite end of the spectrum to Scout/Beacon Runners, they have the largest potential AoE in the game, limited in the majority of maps by cover. They have the lowest damage per minute of all loadouts, and have long reload times, to balance out their ability to inflict damage from across the map.
Bots: Trebuchet Butch Trebuchet Fury Nashorn Fury Trebuchet/Gekko Natasha Nashorn/Gekko Natasha Gekko Patton
Pros: -You can hit your opponents as soon as both teams step out of the gate.
Cons: -Overall low damage output -Long reload times -Highly situational
Field Role: When sniping, target priority is everything. Since the only movement you'll really be doing is to secure your firing line of sight, you'll need to know how to prioritize your targets. Due to the low damage output, your targets are the two extremes of every spectrum with various degrees of priority: Priority 1: Always focus the zone control mid rangers first. Priority 2: A target fighting a friendly OR their cavalry Priority 3: A target you will finish off OR A target with full health.
Positional awareness: This class is often the one that is played with the least tact, making the majority you come across seem fairly pointless. As a sniper you need to be aware of everything happening on the board, as every shot you take needs to count for your presence to be considered useful/Threatening. I don't recommend using one unless you're squadding with friends or clan mates, as the impact of a sniper in this particular game, is only how much it benefits it's team.
Miscellaneous Support: These bots do not fare well outside of organized play, and while they can be a major incovienience if played well, they do not fill any of the aforementioned roles optimally. The troll bots of yore, if I may say.
Bots: Aphid Patton Hydra/Aphid Griffin Hydra/Spiral Griffin Hydra Fujin Hydra Doc
Pros: -Make them see red -Can hit almost any corner of the map in their AoE
Cons: -Low damage -Mediocre reload times -Aphids are too inaccurate to use as a primary weapon.
Field Role:........ HAAAAAIIIIIILLLLLL HYYYYYYDRAAAAAAAA!
Conclusion: Hopefully this can add a little more depth for anyone that reads it. Learn your maps, know your bots and their role, and be aware that any position you may find advantageous, your opponents may find the same. Don't be afraid of pulling back from one direction to put your gear forward where it will shine the most. And most of all, always be aware of your surroundings. See you on the battlefield!
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samo
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Post by samo on Jun 4, 2017 1:28:06 GMT -5
Wow TinTheFiend you made such a long post. All the information is so useful and now allows me to think more closely about my robots and their roles. Not that i wasn't doing that before but now i am more closely. I agree i am put in so many situations where awareness is key but my team just dont do anything about it. Say my team is 4 beacons down, my team would stay in their support bots that are long range or keep attacking the enemy. They dont bother going to recapture the beacons.
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Post by 7iquid on Jun 4, 2017 1:57:04 GMT -5
Great post. Extremely useful for new and existing players. Even if some players are already aware of some of the tactics it is nonetheless useful to have the subject described in a clear format.
I have always wanted a live top down view of the battle field - showing firing arcs. It would be interesting to see how many teams capitalise on this simple but effective strategy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 2:03:44 GMT -5
Wow TinTheFiend you made such a long post. All the information is so useful and now allows me to think more closely about my robots and their roles. Not that i wasn't doing that before but now i am more closely. I agree i am put in so many situations where awareness is key but my team just dont do anything about it. Say my team is 4 beacons down, my team would stay in their support bots that are long range or keep attacking the enemy. They dont bother going to recapture the beacons. Unfortunately, we can't fix other people, only share what we have and better ourselves. As a general suggestion, when playing games with random players, it is usually best to use 1-2 Power Runners, 2-3 knife fighters, and 1-2 direct mid range. This kind of hangar composition gives you better flexibility on how/where you can be a direct influence on the battlefield. Say, they're all midrange and you see that you need to push, you can swap over to a power runner, and run past their midrange and the enemy that is trying to kill them to nab a beacon. In the end, as long as your performance is steady and strong, you should go up to where people play like you sooner than later.
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Post by Why? on Jun 4, 2017 2:16:31 GMT -5
I have a question.
How do I avoid sniper fire like a Treb Fury? Suppose in Canyon, I can see some allies need some urgent help. I am on my PDB Griff, and I can't go round the covers because it'd be too late by then. Often, like your post says, those bots lock down entire sides of maps, and no KF can go through there. How do I counter that while still being in a KF?
Btw, I do mostly random teammates.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 2:24:53 GMT -5
I have a question. How do I avoid sniper fire like a Treb Fury? Suppose in Canyon, I can see some allies need some urgent help. I am on my PDB Griff, and I can't go round the covers because it'd be too late by then. Often, like your post says, those bots lock down entire sides of maps, and no KF can go through there. How do I counter that while still being in a KF? Btw, I do mostly random teammates. If the Fury is focusing you, and you need to help your teammates, you can either take the hit (you'll need about 40k health to endure the fully charged Treb shots) to fire your salvo to assist your allies, or you drop your duty as backup to focus the Fury and get it off the map as soon as possible. In a knife fighter on canyon, trebs can be a problem that gets worse over time, but, if you pay attention to the elevations of the ground, the rock formations, and the other assorted cover, you should be able to flank it. If you're in a power runner or mid-ranger, and you've just seen the Trebs go off on a friend, empty trebs only do about 600 damage at MAX level, so you chase that fatty down and shove some rockets down his throat.
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Post by Russel on Jun 4, 2017 5:44:12 GMT -5
Far too often, I see many players who only know one direction: forward. Conclusion: Hopefully this can add a little more depth for anyone that reads it. Learn your maps, know your bots and their role, and be aware that any position you may find advantageous, your opponents may find the same. Don't be afraid of pulling back from one direction to put your gear forward where it will shine the most. And most of all, always be aware of your surroundings. See you on the battlefield! Wow, that's a hell of a post! I've got two questions\ideas though (the first one might be stupid): 1) You stated that Nashorn is one of a good weapon for snipers. I know that KangDae is higher damage per shot and a tad faster projectile speed. However, due to slow reload, Nashorn is a better DPS weapon. So, as a logical result to that - why not KangDae Butch? With 15 sec Kang reload, 23 sec Treb reload and 20 sec Butch Cooldown it would be still better in terms of DPS than a Treb. 2) I totally missed the Pinata Jesse, Aphid Jesse, Tulu Doc, Orkan Doc, splash\energy Jesse\Doc loadout. Is it because you don't like them or because you haven't tried them?
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Post by Golden Sabre on Jun 4, 2017 7:51:39 GMT -5
Recommend sticky status, great post !
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jun 4, 2017 8:04:13 GMT -5
Great post Tin. I disagree that an aphid patton is not a viable ambush bot, but over-all this is spot on. Thank you.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jun 4, 2017 8:08:07 GMT -5
Visual recommendation: use a differnt color font or underline the bot role names to make it easier to use as a quick reference guide.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:30:17 GMT -5
Hey Doom, I can think of a place we can tuck this little gem away in.
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gillur
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Post by gillur on Jun 4, 2017 10:32:41 GMT -5
Great post.
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Post by Uhnonimis on Jun 4, 2017 11:39:14 GMT -5
Excellent post. I have some slight differences of opinion on the bots lists, bot those are minor quibbles.
Moving forward too aggressively is my worst trait in this game, but i am gradually getting better.
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Post by seanh on Jun 4, 2017 12:08:03 GMT -5
This is excellent.
You have clearly been fallowing me around the battle field watching me make a least 50% of the mistakes you mentioned. You do always realise you have made a mistake, but not always what that mistake was and when exactly you made it. This certainly helps me understand a little better what some of those mistakes were, now hopefully make some better calls.
Well done
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 12:15:55 GMT -5
Far too often, I see many players who only know one direction: forward. Conclusion: Hopefully this can add a little more depth for anyone that reads it. Learn your maps, know your bots and their role, and be aware that any position you may find advantageous, your opponents may find the same. Don't be afraid of pulling back from one direction to put your gear forward where it will shine the most. And most of all, always be aware of your surroundings. See you on the battlefield! Wow, that's a hell of a post! I've got two questions\ideas though (the first one might be stupid): 1) You stated that Nashorn is one of a good weapon for snipers. I know that KangDae is higher damage per shot and a tad faster projectile speed. However, due to slow reload, Nashorn is a better DPS weapon. So, as a logical result to that - why not KangDae Butch? With 15 sec Kang reload, 23 sec Treb reload and 20 sec Butch Cooldown it would be still better in terms of DPS than a Treb. 2) I totally missed the Pinata Jesse, Aphid Jesse, Tulu Doc, Orkan Doc, splash\energy Jesse\Doc loadout. Is it because you don't like them or because you haven't tried them? 1) Nashorn does 9100 damage at level 12 with a 9 second reload. Kang Dae does 11000 with a 15 second reload Butch quick draws every 20 seconds. If you're looking to hold off on buying trebs, or just like bullet cannons better, I'd still say Nashorn. 9100 x 4 > 9 seconds > 9100 x 2 > 9 seconds > 9100 x 4 Versus 11000 x 4 > 15 seconds > 11000 x 2 > 15 seconds > 11000 x 4 I only recommend Trebuchet because Zeus Carnage, trident carnage, and Ancilot's are a majority of your high priority targets. For taking out Fury and Natasha at range, Nashorn is definitely better. 2)Aphids were broken last update, their arcs are bad, their damage isnt guaranteed, and when being used as a primart weapon they leave much to be desired. Will add Pinata Jesse though. Plasma on Gary and stalker is only viable because of their defensive abilities. Doc is too slow for a beacon runner flanker (51kmph max speed) and not durable enough to be a power runner(145k Max health with no composite protection), so, if it can't fit one of the roles for it's class, it loses a great deal of it's flexibility, thus, viability. Mid range doc was included in direct fire midrangers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 12:20:03 GMT -5
Great post Tin. I disagree that an aphid patton is not a viable ambush bot, but over-all this is spot on. Thank you. Aphid trajectory was nerfed to fix their collision bug, I ended up shelving mine because a great deal of it's prime arcs now clip on cover. This, on top of being slow,and low HP, and the only ambusher that is still vulnerable for 10 seconds at close ranges, means an Aphid Patton only does as well as the bots covering it. I use mobile, so color schemes with HTML would be murder for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 12:22:12 GMT -5
Excellent post. I have some slight diffrremces of opinion on the bots lists, bot those are minor quibbles. Moving forward too aggressively is my worst trait in this game, but i am gradually getting better. As you learn to pace better you'll understand why I listed the bots that I did.
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Post by Russel on Jun 4, 2017 12:47:38 GMT -5
Wow, that's a hell of a post! I've got two questions\ideas though (the first one might be stupid): 1) You stated that Nashorn is one of a good weapon for snipers. I know that KangDae is higher damage per shot and a tad faster projectile speed. However, due to slow reload, Nashorn is a better DPS weapon. So, as a logical result to that - why not KangDae Butch? With 15 sec Kang reload, 23 sec Treb reload and 20 sec Butch Cooldown it would be still better in terms of DPS than a Treb. 2) I totally missed the Pinata Jesse, Aphid Jesse, Tulu Doc, Orkan Doc, splash\energy Jesse\Doc loadout. Is it because you don't like them or because you haven't tried them? 1) Nashorn does 9100 damage at level 12 with a 9 second reload. Kang Dae does 11000 with a 15 second reload Butch quick draws every 20 seconds. If you're looking to hold off on buying trebs, or just like bullet cannons better, I'd still say Nashorn. 9100 x 4 > 9 seconds > 9100 x 2 > 9 seconds > 9100 x 4 Versus 11000 x 4 > 15 seconds > 11000 x 2 > 15 seconds > 11000 x 4 I only recommend Trebuchet because Zeus Carnage, trident carnage, and Ancilot's are a majority of your high priority targets. For taking out Fury and Natasha at range, Nashorn is definitely better. 2)Aphids were broken last update, their arcs are bad, their damage isnt guaranteed, and when being used as a primart weapon they leave much to be desired. Doc is too slow for a beacon runner flanker (51kmph max speed) and not durable enough to be a power runner(145k Max health with no composite protection), so, if it can't fit one of the roles for it's class, it loses a great deal of it's flexibility, thus, viability. Mid range doc was included in direct fire midrangers. I beleive Kangdae damage is 11953, so the actual cycle looks like this: Time | Nashorn | KangDae | 1 sec | 9107*4 | 11953*4 | 9 sec | 9107*2 | 0 | 15 sec | 0 | 11953*2 | 18 sec | 9107*2 | 0 | 20 sec | 9107*2 | 11953*2 | Total | 91000 | 95624 |
Then cycle repeats. Also, KangDae is slightly faster. And it can deal higher burst damage (if you are hunting something big and have 4 guns and QuickDraw ready). Please tell me what I'm missing here, still thinks KangDae is better on a Butch. About Jesse - I didn't mean Aphid Jesse. I meant Pinata Jesse. It's better that Gareth; same speed, smaller hitbox and more firepower. Can hit cloaked Stalker and 8 km\h faster than a Gepard. Oh, and Doc is not sole fighter, obviously. But in a company of some big guy he could bring serious firepower - say, 4xOrkans, while being fast (as fast as a Galahad - they are great team). Also I think he works with Lancelot well; never tried it yet, though. I am not trying to pick a fight here, just want somebody to pick a flaws in my playstyle so I could improve it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 13:32:34 GMT -5
I beleive Kangdae damage is 11953, so the actual cycle looks like this: Time | Nashorn | KangDae | 1 sec | 9107*4 | 11953*4 | 9 sec | 9107*2 | 0 | 15 sec | 0 | 11953*2 | 18 sec | 9107*2 | 0 | 20 sec | 9107*2 | 11953*2 | Total | 91000 | 95624 |
Then cycle repeats. Also, KangDae is slightly faster. And it can deal higher burst damage (if you are hunting something big and have 4 guns and QuickDraw ready). Please tell me what I'm missing here, still thinks KangDae is better on a Butch. About Jesse - I didn't mean Aphid Jesse. I meant Pinata Jesse. It's better that Gareth; same speed, smaller hitbox and more firepower. Can hit cloaked Stalker and 8 km\h faster than a Gepard. Oh, and Doc is not sole fighter, obviously. But in a company of some big guy he could bring serious firepower - say, 4xOrkans, while being fast (as fast as a Galahad - they are great team). Also I think he works with Lancelot well; never tried it yet, though. I am not trying to pick a fight here, just want somebody to pick a flaws in my playstyle so I could improve it. Having your volley readily available is more important than having a strong volley, with Trebuchets being an exception by way of being Plasma. That extra 6 seconds between the mid-cycle volley and the quad volley means that your not taking full advantage of Butch's ability cycle time, and you have to wait longer periods between dealing damage, all for just under 3000 damage per cannon, per Volley. So, let's look at damage over a period of initial load to 1 minute: Nashorn: First fire: 36,400 10 seconds: 18,200(54,600) 20 Seconds: 36,400(91,000) 30 seconds: 18,200(109,200) 40 seconds: 36,400(145,600) 50 seconds: 18,200(163,800) 60 seconds: 36,400(200,200) Max potential DPM: 200,200 Kang Dae: First Fire: 47,812 15 seconds: 23,906(71,718) 30 seconds: 47,812(119,530) 45 seconds: 23,906(143,436) 60 seconds: 47,812(191,248) Max potential DPM: 191,248 Verdict: having more opportunities to fire, with almost a 10k difference in potential DPM, means you're more of a threat on the battlefield. On Doc: you can play as you choose, but outside of a squad, having your bot's utility reliant on your allies is short changing a hangar slot that could be filled with a bot capable of doing what Doc is capable of on top of having other utilities in their own right. In comparison, Tulu Doc does half the damage, but is far enough back from the line to change it's firing lanes and pick it's targets, opposed to just hoping your munition type is advantageous against whatever is charging the ally you're shadowing.
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Post by nosinov on Jun 4, 2017 15:19:15 GMT -5
Well, as an experienced Trebutch player I can tell you that the opportunity of being able to fire doesn't depend on the reload speed at all. It's all about the line of sight. Once you blow up the first red capper with a double volley, the reds know that you are a serious threat. And when you're up against good players, they will leave very few chances to hit them. Therefore the damage per hit is important. And BTW as mentioned before. Only the treb will make full use of the Quickdraw. I started with a double Kang/Treb and can assure you that the Trebs outperformed the Kangs already at level 4. Not to mention you can't hit Carnages or Ancilelots. No need for math. Edit: I play D1 with a 9/9 Trebutch and get around to 500-700k dmg on open maps.
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Post by Russel on Jun 4, 2017 15:33:41 GMT -5
Well, as an experienced Trebutch player I can tell you that the opportunity of being able to fire doesn't depend on the reload speed at all. It's all about the line of sight. Once you blow up the first red capper with a double volley, the reds know that you are a serious threat. And when you're up against good players, they will leave very few chances to hit them. Therefore the damage per hit is important. And BTW as mentioned before. Only the treb will make full use of the Quickdraw. I started with a double Kang/Treb and can assure you that the Trebs outperformed the Kangs already at level 4. Not to mention you can't hit Carnages or Ancilelots. No need for math. Edit: I play D1 with a 9/9 Trebutch and get around to 500-700k dmg on open maps. My question was KangDae vs Nashorn. And it feels for me like being able to deal more damage in an instant x4 shot is important thing. But what I know, I've seen sniper bots only in Test server. So I'll leave conversation of "What's more important" for you experienced guys. P.s and still waiting for an answer why Jesse being totally left out in this advice =)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 16:08:58 GMT -5
Good post.
I don't think many understand how much of a difference a sniper makes on the battlefield, and what effect it has. When I play a Fury Treb and after I've personally said hi to the reds, they learn not to ignore me. Yes, they become smarter and more aware, and will take more covered routes when moving, or they will remain behind cover. This may sound bad for a sniper, which it is. But on another level, this prevents free enemy movement which can cause them to be holed up in their base. I could be 600+m away from them, but I'm projecting my presence on the battlefield, so I can effectively lock down an area so they can't advance, take beacons, and flank my allies. I like to sit at the end of a long alleyway like on Powerplant, and all the reds get clumped up trying to cross the road either to get to the beach side and get access to those 2 beacons (or the other way). Also on Dead City when sitting on the perch in front of that long road, the reds can't reinforce their home beacon on that side without crossing my firing lane. You can keep the reds from joining the fight in centre if they are stuck on that side, and make them keep their heads down for the ones around centre beacon. So I don't mind not firing if it keeps multiple reds under cover in multiple spots. It allows my team to converge on them and pick them off one by one.
I consider bots like the Patton Aphids or Jesse Aphids to be harassers and mostly brought out at the beginning of battle when there is less direct engagement and both sides are still sizing up their prey. This is just like in real warfare, when lightly armed and unskilled throwers would throw spears at each other and be the first to "fight". They don't cause a lot of damage, but they are fast and mainly harass to try and disorganize the enemy. In the game, this can confuse the red and make him rash and make poor battlefield decisions and to lose focus. This may not seem like a big deal, since it doesn't cause any damage to the red. But having a red making mistakes is what you want for your team.
How you might say? Well, that is part of the skill of it. Having a Lancelot turn towards you can leave his flank open to plasma fire. Having a Griffin or Galahad worry about your presence, and lose track of another blue he was stalking. Then that split second distraction, and your ally can jump in and take him out with a DB. Or how about a Galahad seeing bloodlust, and charging foolishly into enemy territory to try and take you out. It doesn't have to be that extreme of a response from them, even a red breaking from the pack might be enough for your blues to take advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 17:30:45 GMT -5
Far too often, I see many players who only know one direction: forward. Conclusion: Hopefully this can add a little more depth for anyone that reads it. Learn your maps, know your bots and their role, and be aware that any position you may find advantageous, your opponents may find the same. Don't be afraid of pulling back from one direction to put your gear forward where it will shine the most. And most of all, always be aware of your surroundings. See you on the battlefield! Wow, that's a hell of a post! I've got two questions\ideas though (the first one might be stupid): 1) You stated that Nashorn is one of a good weapon for snipers. I know that KangDae is higher damage per shot and a tad faster projectile speed. However, due to slow reload, Nashorn is a better DPS weapon. So, as a logical result to that - why not KangDae Butch? With 15 sec Kang reload, 23 sec Treb reload and 20 sec Butch Cooldown it would be still better in terms of DPS than a Treb. 2) I totally missed the Pinata Jesse, Aphid Jesse, Tulu Doc, Orkan Doc, splash\energy Jesse\Doc loadout. Is it because you don't like them or because you haven't tried them? As a sniper, I prefer Trebs even though it has lower DPS. But it actually has a better DPS against Carnages if you compare it to all the other sniper choices. One of the drawbacks of owning a Fury is that it requires 3 heavy weapons. They take a lot of time and investment to level up, so it's impossible for many to try it out unless you've been playing a long time. I've been playing almost a year now, and the account was previously leveled up to 7/8 when I took it over so that's already a long, long time. I have my Tridents leveled to 10, which is now below par compared to my other bots and weapons. My Trebs, I just got them all to level 9 last week, so I am lucky that the RDB came back into style this month so I have a reason to run the sniper set up. I've been trying to get my Zenits up too, but that has been put on the back burner the last couple months ever since I created that Zenit thread. So a lot of these builds, it's almost impossible to get more than 1 or 2 weapon sets leveled up considering how long this account has been around, and I don't have any silver shortages either. So this means, trying out the Kang Dae, Butch, KwK would be out of the question. A lot of using a certain weapon is being able to try it out for yourself, but having enough leveled weapons to make a comparison is hard, or actually just time consuming. So you have to make decisions based on what others who have the resources (and time) have done before you.
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Post by jckidd on Jun 4, 2017 20:39:02 GMT -5
Great post! ??
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Post by nosinov on Jun 5, 2017 0:22:13 GMT -5
Good post. I don't think many understand how much of a difference a sniper makes on the battlefield, and what effect it has. When I play a Fury Treb and after I've personally said hi to the reds, they learn not to ignore me. Yes, they become smarter and more aware, and will take more covered routes when moving, or they will remain behind cover. This may sound bad for a sniper, which it is. But on another level, this prevents free enemy movement which can cause them to be holed up in their base. I could be 600+m away from them, but I'm projecting my presence on the battlefield, so I can effectively lock down an area so they can't advance, take beacons, and flank my allies. I like to sit at the end of a long alleyway like on Powerplant, and all the reds get clumped up trying to cross the road either to get to the beach side and get access to those 2 beacons (or the other way). Also on Dead City when sitting on the perch in front of that long road, the reds can't reinforce their home beacon on that side without crossing my firing lane. You can keep the reds from joining the fight in centre if they are stuck on that side, and make them keep their heads down for the ones around centre beacon. So I don't mind not firing if it keeps multiple reds under cover in multiple spots. It allows my team to converge on them and pick them off one by one. Well said. I had a very interesting match in Canyon today. I could team up with a 2nd Trebutch (he=good pilot), and we were able to control almost the whole map. He was in the high ground which is on the line of the center bridge, and I was on the side bridge near the beacon. So the best sniper bots, and the best outlook on the map, were paired with an angle to each other higher than 90 degree. We had the map completely under control after 3 minutes. Everyone was aware that when they jump, they get blasted by 8 plasma beams. When spawning in a carnage being already destroyed. And when charging us with a britbot, we got hit by each of us, in whom his shield not pointing at, since we stood at that big angle to each other. The mid-range did take care if the crimpled rest. That is the situation you described. The red team is losing time while looking out for cover and trying to regroup. You can't ignore snipers any more if they are able to take 2/3 of your HP in a blink of an eye, in any area you are of use. When the mid-ranger were in firing distance to the spawning area the game was done. We won be mech out after 7 minutes.
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Post by Lynx on Jun 13, 2017 13:09:42 GMT -5
Far too often, I see many players who only know one direction: forward. Lateral movements are an important part of tact and field navigation that one absolutely needs to learn in arena games. Sometimes moving sideways is more important than pushing forward, the key to personal advancement is being able to key in on which of these actions will be the most beneficial. It's difficult to give a simile to how positioning and movements create an ebb and flow in a game like this without directly comparing each battle field to an actual war map. The maps are dynamic enough for each one to have a distinct feel, so as a single playbook is not applicable to all of them. I find it's best to picture the battlefield as if each player has an "area of affluence" or Area of Effect (AoE will be used hereafter), with the team's total area of effect constituting a "line". People ignoring these factors are often those that get nailed by two or three snipers/midrange while running off alone. These concepts are much harder to use in random matches, so, the more educated the individual player, the better one can assess the field to be where they need to be, instead of where they want to be. Ranges, Roles, and AoE: Close Range:(<350M): Beacon Runner/Scout: Scouts have a very small area of effect as their goal is mobility oriented first, and they are opportunity driven. They can be greatly underestimated on the battlefield because they are notoriously susceptible to damage, but, if played correctly, can be a very large factor on the battlefield. Bots: Orkan Rogatka Magnum Stalker Pinata Stalker Ork/Pinata Gareth Plasma Gareth Pinata Jesse Pros: Mobility:60kmph+ allows them to get to where they can be used effectively. Rocket Dodging: these bots have the easiest time backpedaling 300M rockets at full speed. The Rogatka adds to this by being able to avoid 500M rockets with it's jump ability, if the jump is used to obscure the rocket's travel path and land adequately behind cover, it can completely avoid the threat. Cons: Low durability: definitely not a bot to use for head on engagements. Low firepower Field role: These bots are usually used in two ways -A throwaway bot at the start of a match: these bots act as the spear point to gain an early beacon advantage, serving as distractions during the initial rush. -Bacon stealer: these bots rush undefended beacons, dividing the opposing force, or negating a beacon push by taking the opposite side of the map as an opposing team's hail Mary. Positional awareness: Beacon Runners want to stay out of the AoE, and general sight lines of snipers and mid range, but they need to do so while constantly moving. Sometimes retreating into friendly territory is the best thing to do(I don't see this nearly enough), sometimes being where no one else is, is being the best asset on the board. Flanking is king because fighting anything focusing you is almost certain death. Power runners(quasi-brawlers): These bots have a small area of effect, but a very distinguished one determined by their weapons. Mixing Mobility, durability, and firepower, these bots are suited for a variety of roles that are not exclusively damage dealing or beacon capture/defense. Bots: Taran/Magnum Galahad Orkan/Pinata Galahad Magnum/Orkan Rhino Aphid/Orkan Rhino Thunder Carnage Pros: -Excellent firepower for their durability and mobility. Cons: -Extremely vulnerable to Mid-range Field role: These bots have a lot going for them, they can travel to where they need to be with relative ease, and take a beating while doling one out. -Brawler: one of the two classes that can be used as main damage dealers, these bots can chase down and destroy other bots that are disadvantaged against their weapon or defense type. -Flanker: Ambushing unaware enemies, and laying down damage to preoccupied does. -Beacon capture AND defense: Positional awareness: I notice many players are too aggressive with these bots, often running into situations where their specialties are moot. Midrange and snipers are the biggest downfalls of these bots, adding on to their inherent weaknesas to certain kinds of munitions. Sometimes it's better to let your enemy come to you, especially when the enemy's position is in areas that have a high probability of being a mid-range bot's firing lane. Death Button(True knife fighters): knife fighters are the bots that we often attribute to being a sort of "Death button". They usually have a slightly larger AoE than their weapon range would suggest, because most other bots will give them a wide berth unless they are another death button looking to lock horns. Firefights are short and straight to the point, usually lasting less than ten seconds. Thunder wielding Lancelots also falls into this category. Bots: Magnum/Taran Griffin Orkan/Pinata Griffin Magnum/Taran Rhino Orkan/Pinata Rhino Thunder/Orkan Lance Thunder/Taran Lance Orkan/Aphid Griffin Taran/Aphid Griffin Subclass:Tank (trades 1/3rd of damage in exchange for becoming a bullet sponge) Ancile Aphid Leo Ancile Magnum Leo Ancile Taran Lancelot Ancile Orkan Lancelot Pros: -Highest damage rates/totals in the game Cons: -Slow -vulnerable to mid-range and long-range Field Roles: These bots are meant to end confrontations quickly, but their limited range can give each one a varying degree of difficulty with getting to an effective position for their payload to make some money-shots. -Brawler: These are the only bots that can take the simplest form of: "Kill or be killed" to heart. They require varying degrees of exposure time to enemy fire, so every shot counts. -Flanker: This role is less subtle when done by a knife fighter, as the opportunities for flanking with non-aphid wielding variants often comes from melting a different Red to get to that desired position. Positional awareness: as a Death Button, you are SLOW. Mid range is the enemy, avoiding them like the plague is key to a successful approach. Know your angles and pick your travel lanes wisely, as charging down the most convenient might mean tasting tulumbas and tridents as you look up at your smoke trail. There are way too many players that are too impatient. If you let your opponents decide where you fight, your victory is not assured, however, the other way around can guarantee your opponent a swift death. Mid range:(350-600M) Direct Support:These mid-range platforms are mobile, often serving as shadows to Power Runners and Knife fighters.They have a moderate AoE,and can deliver several bursts in short periods. Bots: Pin/Tulumbas Griffin Tulumbas Doc Tulumbas Fujin Zeus Carnage Trident Carnage Pros: -Respectable damage in a small period of time -Agile enough to Zone effectively Cons: -Knife fighters and power runners will dedicate their life to ending yours as quickly as possible. Field Role: Direct support mid-rangers are tasked with zone control for their bulkier, scarier close range counterparts. Quick to take pot shots at anything your close range partner may come in contact with, and preventing enemy flanks (by graciously pointing them out with your munitions) are the name of the game. Positional awareness: While the direct-mid role is, by accessory, close to where all of the action is, I notice a lot of people over-step the capabilities of their bot by putting them in situations that do not take advantage of their range (newbie Griffin pilot's are very guilty of this). Having better range does not abscond you from judicial use of terrain and cover, keep that in mind. Zone control is king, and sometimes changing lateral lanes, or retreating a few meters is the difference between a dead red, and getting ham-fisted by a brawler you left unchecked for too long. Pure Zone control: I spoke earlier of a "line", the AoE of this class of bot is often the very faithful, or painful, indicator of where that line stands. Two direct support mid-rangers working in tandem can fill this role, but the bots in this category are high priority targets, to defend when friendly, to destroy as quickly as possible when spotted on the enemy line. Bots: Trident Fury Zeus Fury Trident/Pin Natasha Zeus/Gekko Natasha Pros: -Highest burst damage for it's range class Cons: -Slow, and somewhat defenseless between volleys Field Role: I named them this because there was no fancy way to describe them. These bots are meant for area denial, two of them working in tandem with supplementary munition types can effectively secure whatever area they have in their line of sight. They have enough firepower to retaliate against anything wounded by your friendly knife fighters or power runners, and aim to shut down whatever fire lane they chose to cover. Positional Awareness: as your main purpose is to secure a safe zone for your allies to retreat to, you'll need to memorize the vantage points along all of the maps that you can capitalize on. I say all of them, because the biggest bad habit I've seen with these Behemoths, is when the person piloting them does not know when to move up, or move back. These sets can be considered campy, but they're effective. There are at least 4 points on each side of every map that a Pure Zone control midranger should know. They are: -Where they should be in the event of an approaching spawn raid -Where they should be when center control is contested -Where they should be when Center control is in their favor -where they should be when the enemy team is pushed to their spawn. Long Range:(600M-1100M) Artillery: Is currently bad, and you shouldn't play it unless you know the layout of every map like the back of your eyelids, every control spot midranger will take, and every fox whole that runner classes will stop at. Sniper: Snipers are the opposite end of the spectrum to Scout/Beacon Runners, they have the largest potential AoE in the game, limited in the majority of maps by cover. They have the lowest damage per minute of all loadouts, and have long reload times, to balance out their ability to inflict damage from across the map. Bots: Trebuchet Butch Trebuchet Fury Nashorn Fury Trebuchet/Gekko Natasha Nashorn/Gekko Natasha Gekko Patton Pros: -You can hit your opponents as soon as both teams step out of the gate. Cons: -Overall low damage output -Long reload times -Highly situational Field Role: When sniping, target priority is everything. Since the only movement you'll really be doing is to secure your firing line of sight, you'll need to know how to prioritize your targets. Due to the low damage output, your targets are the two extremes of every spectrum with various degrees of priority: Priority 1: Always focus the zone control mid rangers first. Priority 2: A target fighting a friendly OR their cavalry Priority 3: A target you will finish off OR A target with full health. Positional awareness: This class is often the one that is played with the least tact, making the majority you come across seem fairly pointless. As a sniper you need to be aware of everything happening on the board, as every shot you take needs to count for your presence to be considered useful/Threatening. I don't recommend using one unless you're squadding with friends or clan mates, as the impact of a sniper in this particular game, is only how much it benefits it's team. Miscellaneous Support: These bots do not fare well outside of organized play, and while they can be a major incovienience if played well, they do not fill any of the aforementioned roles optimally. The troll bots of yore, if I may say. Bots: Aphid Patton Hydra/Aphid Griffin Hydra/Spiral Griffin Hydra Fujin Hydra Doc Pros: -Make them see red -Can hit almost any corner of the map in their AoE Cons: -Low damage -Mediocre reload times -Aphids are too inaccurate to use as a primary weapon. Field Role:........ HAAAAAIIIIIILLLLLL HYYYYYYDRAAAAAAAA! Conclusion: Hopefully this can add a little more depth for anyone that reads it. Learn your maps, know your bots and their role, and be aware that any position you may find advantageous, your opponents may find the same. Don't be afraid of pulling back from one direction to put your gear forward where it will shine the most. And most of all, always be aware of your surroundings. See you on the battlefield! Where does the punishes griffin, the molot griffin,the punishes thunder Leo stand in all this?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 16:09:57 GMT -5
Lynx they don't. Every change to bullet weapons has decreased their damage per second and damage per minute. They were more serviceable before the spinup mechanic was introduced than after the changes. Even though they can shred ancile shields and incur chip damage on bots with physical shields, they cannot do enough damage at their effective ranges to compete with other weapon types that do not have a decay rate on accuracy at those same ranges. Even at higher levels, the total damage per minute is lackluster, as rockets up to 600M have comparable DPM, but deal said damage at a higher rate per interval, with less exposure to retaliatory fire. The only time Punishers and Molots are somewhat effective are against bots like the Griffin and Fury, which, while popular, boast higher burst damage. Meaning that while one is trying to spray them with bullets, it's very likely that they can squeeze of a high power volley (doing a full clip' s worth of damage from bullets in 3-4 seconds) and then retreating into cover. With the spinup mechanic requiring 3 seconds for bullets to have the same DPS as previous incarnations, this means that most of the time spent firing is firing at suboptimal DPS for the weapon. To put it into perspective: Punisher bullets do about 40% of Pinata rocket damage at the same level, but, Punisher's base fire at the same speed as 300M rockets, with the amount of time they take to increase their fire rate, equal to the amount of time a Pinata takes to completely empty. Pins and Tulumbas take 3-4 seconds to empty, with tulumbas having the same damage per clip as Pinatas at 500M range. This makes both the Punisher and Punisher 2 mediocre in all of its ranges, while rocket weapons have consistent performance at their ranges. Molots used to fire 3 times the amount of bullets they do now, with only 30% less damage than they deal now, with a clip that was 5X the size it is now. Overall, bullet weapons cannot fill any of the roles they should/could have. They have : mediocre damage Long exposure times Laughable fire rate compared to previous versions (Punisher used to fire 40 bullets a second, it now fires 8, it only got a damage increase of around 45% over the changes. Overall a 80% reduction in rounds to a 45% increase in damage) Low ammunition compared to previous versions Comparatively long reload times Load up on plasma and rockets. Else you're just free Ag for the red team.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 19:13:09 GMT -5
Lynx they don't. Every change to bullet weapons has decreased their damage per second and damage per minute. They were more serviceable before the spinup mechanic was introduced than after the changes. Even though they can shred ancile shields and incur chip damage on bots with physical shields, they cannot do enough damage at their effective ranges to compete with other weapon types that do not have a decay rate on accuracy at those same ranges. Even at higher levels, the total damage per minute is lackluster, as rockets up to 600M have comparable DPM, but deal said damage at a higher rate per interval, with less exposure to retaliatory fire. The only time Punishers and Molots are somewhat effective are against bots like the Griffin and Fury, which, while popular, boast higher burst damage. Meaning that while one is trying to spray them with bullets, it's very likely that they can squeeze of a high power volley (doing a full clip' s worth of damage from bullets in 3-4 seconds) and then retreating into cover. With the spinup mechanic requiring 3 seconds for bullets to have the same DPS as previous incarnations, this means that most of the time spent firing is firing at suboptimal DPS for the weapon. To put it into perspective: Punisher bullets do about 40% of Pinata rocket damage at the same level, but, Punisher's base fire at the same speed as 300M rockets, with the amount of time they take to increase their fire rate, equal to the amount of time a Pinata takes to completely empty. Pins and Tulumbas take 3-4 seconds to empty, with tulumbas having the same damage per clip as Pinatas at 500M range. This makes both the Punisher and Punisher 2 mediocre in all of its ranges, while rocket weapons have consistent performance at their ranges. Molots used to fire 3 times the amount of bullets they do now, with only 30% less damage than they deal now, with a clip that was 5X the size it is now. Overall, bullet weapons cannot fill any of the roles they should/could have. They have : mediocre damage Long exposure times Laughable fire rate compared to previous versions (Punisher used to fire 40 bullets a second, it now fires 8, it only got a damage increase of around 45% over the changes. Overall a 80% reduction in rounds to a 45% increase in damage) Low ammunition compared to previous versions Comparatively long reload times Load up on plasma and rockets. Else you're just free Ag for the red team. Good post. The Punisher doesn't fit anywhere right now. I'm guessing it has similar effective range like the Thunder, but the Thunder can be put on the Carnage which has sprint. Maybe once the dash bot comes out, you'll be able to dash in and do more DPS with the Punishers than Tarans/Magnums. Right now, the Galahad Punisher doesn't really work, and neither does the Griffin Punisher with jump. A trick people use is to spin up their weapons before going out in the open, so that the 3 seconds spin up time is negated. It wastes some ammo, but maximizes the limited time the red is usually out in the open.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jun 13, 2017 21:06:10 GMT -5
I have a Punisher bot in this weeks hangar. It's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be, it's just not better than plasma or rockets. Kinda fun though.
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Post by Lynx on Jun 14, 2017 1:28:36 GMT -5
Lynx they don't. Every change to bullet weapons has decreased their damage per second and damage per minute. They were more serviceable before the spinup mechanic was introduced than after the changes. Even though they can shred ancile shields and incur chip damage on bots with physical shields, they cannot do enough damage at their effective ranges to compete with other weapon types that do not have a decay rate on accuracy at those same ranges. Even at higher levels, the total damage per minute is lackluster, as rockets up to 600M have comparable DPM, but deal said damage at a higher rate per interval, with less exposure to retaliatory fire. The only time Punishers and Molots are somewhat effective are against bots like the Griffin and Fury, which, while popular, boast higher burst damage. Meaning that while one is trying to spray them with bullets, it's very likely that they can squeeze of a high power volley (doing a full clip' s worth of damage from bullets in 3-4 seconds) and then retreating into cover. With the spinup mechanic requiring 3 seconds for bullets to have the same DPS as previous incarnations, this means that most of the time spent firing is firing at suboptimal DPS for the weapon. To put it into perspective: Punisher bullets do about 40% of Pinata rocket damage at the same level, but, Punisher's base fire at the same speed as 300M rockets, with the amount of time they take to increase their fire rate, equal to the amount of time a Pinata takes to completely empty. Pins and Tulumbas take 3-4 seconds to empty, with tulumbas having the same damage per clip as Pinatas at 500M range. This makes both the Punisher and Punisher 2 mediocre in all of its ranges, while rocket weapons have consistent performance at their ranges. Molots used to fire 3 times the amount of bullets they do now, with only 30% less damage than they deal now, with a clip that was 5X the size it is now. Overall, bullet weapons cannot fill any of the roles they should/could have. They have : mediocre damage Long exposure times Laughable fire rate compared to previous versions (Punisher used to fire 40 bullets a second, it now fires 8, it only got a damage increase of around 45% over the changes. Overall a 80% reduction in rounds to a 45% increase in damage) Low ammunition compared to previous versions Comparatively long reload times Load up on plasma and rockets. Else you're just free Ag for the red team. Hmmm.......You're right.Since I am a new player I don't know how the punishers and molots were. Also what about the ecu bots?How should they be used? Another question I had was about the noricum stalker.Is it effective at all?
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