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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Aug 20, 2021 10:06:08 GMT -5
That's my goal too. RM12 works surprisingly well with the KS. If your KS has 20EN, you can do RM12/MR8. This build was pretty effective on the KS. Yup, that or Jav 6... either will help... but having 2 sets of RMs is needed. A good player can dodge one volley, so having 2 and using the first shot as a "bird dog" to flush them out then as soon as you have a good idea of which way they are going, shoot the second volley with a decent little wiggle to spread them out, makes a difference. You know what? This post got me thinking...
I think I will use my RM 8s... why didn't I think of that before? They are only 3 or 4 *, but they will work perfect for the first volley just to get the 2nd volley set up... I am going to try that and run some 5v5 Quick Matches over lunch. |
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Post by Old-Cat on Aug 20, 2021 11:03:54 GMT -5
Having been on both sides of this argument at different points... my thoughts, for what they are worth (which probably isn't much, but nerding out on this stuff is fun to me so... yeah) after having them in hangar for a bit:
Like ACRUX said, you will struggle in the situation, above, even owning your own RG and having it on your favorite mech.
Full Squad or duo, it's tough against a coordinated team, even if they have lower SP than I do.
RGs are so easy to miss with, especially up close in the thick of battle... Def not end all/be all weapons.
Now, they do rate being a prototype class weapon, and they should cost 16 EN... because they are the "BEST" weapons, arguably. Cases could be made for others being the best... which is proof that there is more balance than it seems. However, their weaknesses are enough to allow smart play to counter/avoid them and for them not to decide games, on their own.
Let me be honest, though, when I first started going against the occasional player with RGs, I didn't think like that and I tended to echo your thoughts.
But, over time, I adapted and learned the best way for ME to deal with them. It does def help to know how to counter them if you have one, though, because then you have a better idea of just how vulnerable you can be, and how, even with a full mag, you can still lose an encounter if you aren't focused and don't take time to ensure your shots are on point. One example of a tip I learned by having the RG that I try to make use of when playing against one: I won't fire at someone with a RG if my AI is in the way.. way too risky. So... I use another red that won't kill me as fast, as a shield, while I try to get to cover or get a shot in on the RG player. Even if they do take a shot, their AI will probably block it.
Dual RG builds tend to signify that you are not only dealing with a maxed build, but more often than not, really good players, too. Players that would probably have won in a 5 * hangar, with just a little more effort. Hell, MR 8 KS is more dangerous, mid game, than most builds, except for the dual RG build, due to how versatile it is and how low HP 4 - 5* mechs (what I consider mid-game) have. MR8 KS reloads faster, can dash, and can move around to the action a helluva lot faster than most RG builds. RG KS is also pretty bad, but only when maxed and paired with a more suppressive weapon (IMO).
excellent response. |
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Post by Koalabear on Aug 20, 2021 11:15:56 GMT -5
That's my goal too. RM12 works surprisingly well with the KS. If your KS has 20EN, you can do RM12/MR8. This build was pretty effective on the KS. Yup, that or Jav 6... either will help... but having 2 sets of RMs is needed. A good player can dodge one volley, so having 2 and using the first shot as a "bird dog" to flush them out then as soon as you have a good idea of which way they are going, shoot the second volley with a decent little wiggle to spread them out, makes a difference. You know what? This post got me thinking...
I think I will use my RM 8s... why didn't I think of that before? They are only 3 or 4 *, but they will work perfect for the first volley just to get the 2nd volley set up... I am going to try that and run some 5v5 Quick Matches over lunch. Only problem with RM8 is that they hardly hit anything. It's only 3 fewer rockets, but I guess that makes a huge difference since it falls in the same area as the RM12. You could use it to flush folks out, but that would only work on a human player, and if the human player is smart, he would come out of cover sprinting and keep sprinting. You'd have to wait 3 seconds until his sprint is up and then launch the RM12. A guy used an interesting combo on me this week. SB12/16 and RM12. He put me in stasis and launched the RM12 at just above 46m. I didn't stand a chance. I've done JR6/RM12 combo and this is a good combo. |
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Post by reconnecting on Aug 20, 2021 12:06:25 GMT -5
Dual RG builds tend to signify that you are not only dealing with a maxed build, but more often than not, really good players, too. Players that would probably have won in a 5 * hangar, with just a little more effort. Hell, MR 8 KS is more dangerous, mid game, than most builds, except for the dual RG build, due to how versatile it is and how low HP 4 - 5* mechs (what I consider mid-game) have. MR8 KS reloads faster, can dash, and can move around to the action a helluva lot faster than most RG builds. RG KS is also pretty bad, but only when maxed and paired with a more suppressive weapon (IMO).
You make some good points, though as someone said the closeup damage needs to be less. That way RG is just another sniper weapon and I can mostly deal with those. Keeping a mortars bot might help, Jav based maybe, but that is map dependent. None of that will prevent a 50% RG clan from steam rolling my team. |
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Post by A.c.r.u.x. on Aug 23, 2021 7:14:50 GMT -5
Nah man. Right now, there are 2 events/week that have 100 a-coins as their prize. 3 months is 13 weeks. That's 200 a-coins x 13 weeks = 2600 coins. Next is the new weekly prize rewards. This takes 4-5 days to complete 1 cycle (you can manage 2 cycles every nine days if you play your cards right). Conservatively, that's 200 more coins every 5 days. 3 months is 90 days. That means you'll get 200 coins 18 times, or 3600 coins. Just from events and tasks, that means you'll get 6200 coins. Lastly, if you play the tournament like I have advocated and just push the last 2 or 3 days and win first place in Novice and Professional brackets (or whatever they are) you'll win 150 coins/ week from easy tournament days (all the try-hards are in the master and grandmaster brackets at this point). That's almost 2000 coins which brings your total over 8000. That doesn't even take into account the slow accumulation of coins from chests or from random Loot Rush spins. That's why it could easily be faster. But still, 3 months. There you go! Thank you,in the cold light of day figures it can do done with patience and gameplay. And yes I follow your guidance on tournament and have come first a few times since then,so much better than grinding and then finding you end up with nothing. Another event to add to the list is loot rush,A coins to be had there,and of course I am not adverse to buying some A coin packs or deals during that time to speed up the process. And let's not forget compensation for dual bots is due to arrive sometime in the next millennium so hopefully some nice A coins to be had there. I'm happy with where my hanger is now in terms of upgrades and have no real ambition to spend A coins in a expensive upgrade so all in all I hope to have Rail Gun in a few months. Note also once you clear all the blue skins in the (5 vault) fortune vault the progress bar becomes acions (800 in total) in place of them.. so until they change it is also a good way to earn them.  |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Aug 23, 2021 7:20:17 GMT -5
Dual RG builds tend to signify that you are not only dealing with a maxed build, but more often than not, really good players, too. Players that would probably have won in a 5 * hangar, with just a little more effort. Hell, MR 8 KS is more dangerous, mid game, than most builds, except for the dual RG build, due to how versatile it is and how low HP 4 - 5* mechs (what I consider mid-game) have. MR8 KS reloads faster, can dash, and can move around to the action a helluva lot faster than most RG builds. RG KS is also pretty bad, but only when maxed and paired with a more suppressive weapon (IMO).
You make some good points, though as someone said the closeup damage needs to be less. That way RG is just another sniper weapon and I can mostly deal with those. Keeping a mortars bot might help, Jav based maybe, but that is map dependent. None of that will prevent a 50% RG clan from steam rolling my team. Oh I hear ya there...
like I said, team v solo battles are rough.
I guess I just don't see enough of those to worry about it, and if it's against a solo player, it's more of an even fight and I enjoy those... even if they are maxed. But you may be right... IDK. My experience is mine and can color my view on just how bad it is. I admit to not playing at peak times, and that could affect how many matches I see with that many RG players. At the same time, when I do run peak hours, it's usually in a squad, which puts me in that category your original point was about... LOL
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 23, 2021 9:22:16 GMT -5
You make some good points, though as someone said the closeup damage needs to be less. That way RG is just another sniper weapon and I can mostly deal with those. Keeping a mortars bot might help, Jav based maybe, but that is map dependent. None of that will prevent a 50% RG clan from steam rolling my team. Oh I hear ya there...
like I said, team v solo battles are rough.
I guess I just don't see enough of those to worry about it, and if it's against a solo player, it's more of an even fight and I enjoy those... even if they are maxed. But you may be right... IDK. My experience is mine and can color my view on just how bad it is. I admit to not playing at peak times, and that could affect how many matches I see with that many RG players. At the same time, when I do run peak hours, it's usually in a squad, which puts me in that category your original point was about... LOL
The thing about sandbox balancing is that TTK tends to have an effect on battle pacing inverse to it's speed. Mech games have longer TTK values than FPS games. Weapons that kill too fast force gameplay to slow down considerably if there isn't: -universal movement that effectively avoids being hit OR - A significant drawback built into the weapon so that it isn't a catch all. Mech games don't have the former, so they need the latter. Playing against any number of players with insta-delete weapons simultaneously is frustrating simply because of the effort needed to effectively counter those specific players, meanwhile: short match timer. Games with fast TTKs are balanced around positioning and first strike. Games with slow TTKs are balanced around measured engagements on top of the former. The foundation of PvP revolving around the mixed bag of actual gear levels, where moneybags often win, is why games like this can never be truly competetive. Add in the "delete button" weapon being the pinnacle "build" and you have a game that is fast paced and action packed, until the delete button weapon is ubiquitous. Also, side note: "Build" always annoys me when used in MA, War Robots, or any of the other mech games like them. It's not a build. There's no thought to it. It's not a customization or specialty in a sandbox of specialization or customization. It's just META, or non meta. The saltier I get over mobile games, the more I miss Armored core. |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Aug 23, 2021 10:07:28 GMT -5
Oh I hear ya there...
like I said, team v solo battles are rough.
I guess I just don't see enough of those to worry about it, and if it's against a solo player, it's more of an even fight and I enjoy those... even if they are maxed. But you may be right... IDK. My experience is mine and can color my view on just how bad it is. I admit to not playing at peak times, and that could affect how many matches I see with that many RG players. At the same time, when I do run peak hours, it's usually in a squad, which puts me in that category your original point was about... LOL
The thing about sandbox balancing is that TTK tends to have an effect on battle pacing inverse to it's speed. Mech games have longer TTK values than FPS games. Weapons that kill too fast force gameplay to slow down considerably if there isn't: -universal movement that effectively avoids being hit OR - A significant drawback built into the weapon so that it isn't a catch all. Mech games don't have the former, so they need the latter. Playing against any number of players with insta-delete weapons simultaneously is frustrating simply because of the effort needed to effectively counter those specific players, meanwhile: short match timer. Games with fast TTKs are balanced around positioning and first strike. Games with slow TTKs are balanced around measured engagements on top of the former. The foundation of PvP revolving around the mixed bag of actual gear levels, where moneybags often win, is why games like this can never be truly competetive. Add in the "delete button" weapon being the pinnacle "build" and you have a game that is fast paced and action packed, until the delete button weapon is ubiquitous. Also, side note: "Build" always annoys me when used in MA, War Robots, or any of the other mech games like them. It's not a build. There's no thought to it. It's not a customization or specialty in a sandbox of specialization or customization. It's just META, or non meta. The saltier I get over mobile games, the more I miss Armored core. You def make good points...
I do want to point out that part of this is also that Devs won't segragate player populations due to equipment/hangar power, which makes it hard for folk that haven't even unlocked some of these weapons to go against them.
Railgun may be instant delete, but it is not available all the time. Dual RG is a bit of a 「dookie」show, though... I get that. I really feel like that was a bigger mistake than any other I have seen so far, and Global Release is why... when it was just a few players, not a big deal. BUT... new players = more whales and I have already come across a few accounts that had 50k XP but were maxed out on at least 2 builds... one of those being either the Panther or the Guardian with 2x RGs. With no real MM component dealing with power differential besides variable AI, there is going to be a LOT of folk 「female dog」ing as players like these rise through the Divisions and slowly gain XP... and rightfully so.
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Post by reconnecting on Aug 23, 2021 11:59:12 GMT -5
Also, side note: "Build" always annoys me when used in MA, War Robots, or any of the other mech games like them. It's not a build. There's no thought to it. It's not a customization or specialty in a sandbox of specialization or customization. It's just META, or non meta. The saltier I get over mobile games, the more I miss Armored core. Put customization into your Mechs Game design in the Off Topic topic. I used to play a Mechs game that had a garage just for customizing your Mechs. It was awesome. Players came up with amazing, creative stuff. Wish I could remember the name.  |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 23, 2021 12:58:25 GMT -5
Also, side note: "Build" always annoys me when used in MA, War Robots, or any of the other mech games like them. It's not a build. There's no thought to it. It's not a customization or specialty in a sandbox of specialization or customization. It's just META, or non meta. The saltier I get over mobile games, the more I miss Armored core.     Put customization into your Mechs Game design in the Off Topic topic. I used to play a Mechs game that had a garage just for customizing your Mechs. It was awesome. Players came up with amazing, creative stuff. Wish I could remember the name. Probably Armored Core. Ever since it's first release on PS1, every bit of the mech was a custom fit. Head, core, arms, legs, generator, thrusters, radiator, and two weapons on each side, one on each arm, and back weapons that could be swapped to by disabling the arm weapon. Everything, EVERYTHING affected how the AC actually performed. A nightmare for people that weren't into combing through sheets of numbers to make mechs do ~exactly~ what the build was meant to do, with stark pros and cons associated with specialization. 1- 3: Silent Line were PS1 Last Raven was the only notable PS2 release, and regarded as one of the most difficult games in an already challenging series. 4 and 4A tried to speed things up on Ps4 and 360, which almost killed the franchise. 5 and (V)erdict Day were released years later, meeting somewhere between Silent Line and 5. Fat chance we'll ever get a new Armored Core, for a very bittersweet reason: It's the same Studio that makes Dark Souls, Fromsoft (Formerly From Software). Souls games are fun, but they're not hard. Armored core. Armored core was the 「fluffernutter」ing DEFINITION of GIT GUD. It was the only game where the player could literally fail the mission before even starting it. The thing about AC, is that it made sacrifices for it's customization, a lot of them. If I decide on making a single player game, because that's actually plausible without a boat of cash (netcode is a monster I'm far and away from being capable of, or paying someone else to do lol), I'd definitely make the mobile equivalent to Armored core. Hell, since I'm talking "what if", making a couple of games like that might grock up enough capital to make an arena shooter that isn't a cesspit of microtransactions. Resource(file) size wise, the customization would have to be mostly internals or add- ons(like BoT) for space/processing reasons. I still haven't had a chance to clean up that off topic thread. My replies further in talk about how I'd want to situate the Hangars and MM for actual COMPETITIVE gameplay. The only other mech game with a really involved hangar was EXTEEL. Made by NCsoft(original publishers of Guild Wars). It was killed off because there were coding problems that made transferring the code from the South East Asia version to the International version a nightmare that lost boatloads of revenue. War Robots may be a money black hole, but imagine a game getting thrown on the chopping block because the coders responsible for localization and making sure PLAYERS CAN ACTUALLY BUY THINGS WITH RM couldn't do their job. It was gundam-esque aesthetically and on PC. Someone finally got a private server up and running some 12 years later. It's somewhere in off topic. |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 23, 2021 13:09:57 GMT -5
You def make good points... I do want to point out that part of this is also that Devs won't segragate player populations due to equipment/hangar power, which makes it hard for folk that haven't even unlocked some of these weapons to go against them. Railgun may be instant delete, but it is not available all the time. Dual RG is a bit of a 「dookie」show, though... I get that. I really feel like that was a bigger mistake than any other I have seen so far, and Global Release is why... when it was just a few players, not a big deal. BUT... new players = more whales and I have already come across a few accounts that had 50k XP but were maxed out on at least 2 builds... one of those being either the Panther or the Guardian with 2x RGs. With no real MM component dealing with power differential besides variable AI, there is going to be a LOT of folk 「female dog」ing as players like these rise through the Divisions and slowly gain XP... and rightfully so. Their hairbrained fix for keeping low division players from exploiting the AI in tournament was making the EXP progression the ONLY deciding factor in AI and player MM. I thought it was stupid then, and still think it was a pretty bad way to Jimmy a fix. It makes divisions a redundant system that does nothing but limit daily payouts, the part of daily payouts that are RNG based, mind you. It's an arbitrary grind before reaching the most quickplay and victory token rewards per day, and nothing more. A daily XP limit also ~Makes sure~ that whales get almost a full year of clubbing everything but other whales. Outside of weekly missions, the daily limit on XP is 1000 between matches and dailies. Divisions don't matter. At all. It's just the XP rating now, and that's heavily time gated. So, if a newbie runs into a proper whale that plays during their same prime time, their options are to lose, or literally stop playing for a couple of weeks so the whale's XP takes them out of their MM bracket. Meanwhile, they can come back 2 weeks later and run into a different whale with R5 Panther, Guardian, Killshot and Redox at sub 30K XP. |
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Post by reconnecting on Aug 23, 2021 13:29:00 GMT -5
    Put customization into your Mechs Game design in the Off Topic topic. I used to play a Mechs game that had a garage just for customizing your Mechs. It was awesome. Players came up with amazing, creative stuff. Wish I could remember the name. Probably Armored Core. Ever since it's first release on PS1, every bit of the mech was a custom fit. Head, core, arms, legs, generator, thrusters, radiator, and two weapons on each side, one on each arm, and back weapons that could be swapped to by disabling the arm weapon. Everything, EVERYTHING affected how the AC actually performed. A nightmare for people that weren't into combing through sheets of numbers to make mechs do ~exactly~ what the build was meant to do, with stark pros and cons associated with specialization. 1- 3: Silent Line were PS1 Last Raven was the only notable PS2 release, and regarded as one of the most difficult games in an already challenging series. 4 and 4A tried to speed things up on Ps4 and 360, which almost killed the franchise. 5 and (V)erdict Day were released years later, meeting somewhere between Silent Line and 5. Fat chance we'll ever get a new Armored Core, for a very bittersweet reason: It's the same Studio that makes Dark Souls, Fromsoft (Formerly From Software). Souls games are fun, but they're not hard. Armored core. Armored core was the 「fluffernutter」ing DEFINITION of GIT GUD. It was the only game where the player could literally fail the mission before even starting it. The thing about AC, is that it made sacrifices for it's customization, a lot of them. If I decide on making a single player game, because that's actually plausible without a boat of cash (netcode is a monster I'm far and away from being capable of, or paying someone else to do lol), I'd definitely make the mobile equivalent to Armored core. Hell, since I'm talking "what if", making a couple of games like that might grock up enough capital to make an arena shooter that isn't a cesspit of microtransactions. Resource(file) size wise, the customization would have to be mostly internals or add- ons(like BoT) for space/processing reasons. I still haven't had a chance to clean up that off topic thread. My replies further in talk about how I'd want to situate the Hangars and MM for actual COMPETITIVE gameplay. The only other mech game with a really involved hangar was EXTEEL. Made by NCsoft(original publishers of Guild Wars). It was killed off because there were coding problems that made transferring the code from the South East Asia version to the International version a nightmare that lost boatloads of revenue. War Robots may be a money black hole, but imagine a game getting thrown on the chopping block because the coders responsible for localization and making sure PLAYERS CAN ACTUALLY BUY THINGS WITH RM couldn't do their job. It was gundam-esque aesthetically and on PC. Someone finally got a private server up and running some 12 years later. It's somewhere in off topic. The Game I was thinking of is Chromehounds. I remember players had awesome Mechs designs and cool graphics they made. Might have been 5v5 or 4v4. Good times.    |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Aug 23, 2021 14:55:21 GMT -5
Probably Armored Core. Ever since it's first release on PS1, every bit of the mech was a custom fit. Head, core, arms, legs, generator, thrusters, radiator, and two weapons on each side, one on each arm, and back weapons that could be swapped to by disabling the arm weapon. Everything, EVERYTHING affected how the AC actually performed. A nightmare for people that weren't into combing through sheets of numbers to make mechs do ~exactly~ what the build was meant to do, with stark pros and cons associated with specialization. 1- 3: Silent Line were PS1 Last Raven was the only notable PS2 release, and regarded as one of the most difficult games in an already challenging series. 4 and 4A tried to speed things up on Ps4 and 360, which almost killed the franchise. 5 and (V)erdict Day were released years later, meeting somewhere between Silent Line and 5. Fat chance we'll ever get a new Armored Core, for a very bittersweet reason: It's the same Studio that makes Dark Souls, Fromsoft (Formerly From Software). Souls games are fun, but they're not hard. Armored core. Armored core was the 「fluffernutter」ing DEFINITION of GIT GUD. It was the only game where the player could literally fail the mission before even starting it. The thing about AC, is that it made sacrifices for it's customization, a lot of them. If I decide on making a single player game, because that's actually plausible without a boat of cash (netcode is a monster I'm far and away from being capable of, or paying someone else to do lol), I'd definitely make the mobile equivalent to Armored core. Hell, since I'm talking "what if", making a couple of games like that might grock up enough capital to make an arena shooter that isn't a cesspit of microtransactions. Resource(file) size wise, the customization would have to be mostly internals or add- ons(like BoT) for space/processing reasons. I still haven't had a chance to clean up that off topic thread. My replies further in talk about how I'd want to situate the Hangars and MM for actual COMPETITIVE gameplay. The only other mech game with a really involved hangar was EXTEEL. Made by NCsoft(original publishers of Guild Wars). It was killed off because there were coding problems that made transferring the code from the South East Asia version to the International version a nightmare that lost boatloads of revenue. War Robots may be a money black hole, but imagine a game getting thrown on the chopping block because the coders responsible for localization and making sure PLAYERS CAN ACTUALLY BUY THINGS WITH RM couldn't do their job. It was gundam-esque aesthetically and on PC. Someone finally got a private server up and running some 12 years later. It's somewhere in off topic. The Game I was thinking of is Chromehounds. I remember players had awesome Mechs designs and cool graphics they made. Might have been 5v5 or 4v4. Good times. YES! That is definitely one I would pay to play again! |
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cyborge
Destrier
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Karma: 38
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Post by cyborge on Aug 23, 2021 20:09:33 GMT -5
After being more active for several days I've come to a realization. It's still a good game as long as it stays like this. I mean with bots having a single skill with a single effect. The thing i realized is that player skill still matter much simply because a maxed panther will still get killed by a 4* LA build almost as fast as a 4* panther. There's not many fool proof magic abilities that the game offers for money YET. Whereas the war robot we know have Teleport, damage resistance, phase shift, you get the idea. The thing about MA is if you hit someone out positioned they still die without this fail safe magic abilities.
That said Im having fun as F2P for now.
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