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Post by frunobulax on Aug 8, 2020 11:30:25 GMT -5
So this was a bit buried in another thread, and I find myself revisiting this quite a lot. So I'll copy&update part of it over here where it belongs. The question is simple: Which normal bots are efficient against titans? Obviously no single normal bot can challenge a maxed titan. But Platinum is a premium currency that can't be increased without a significant RM investment, so most players that don't have a high level titan will look for builds that can put some hole in mid-level titans.
1. Titan stats
Even a maxed plasma Ming (that has fairly moderate sustained damage, Retaliators/Vengeance will do a lot more from close range) can deal about 23k cycle DPS if my math is right (and it has high level and 2 antimatters). At 78k burst damage for 4.5 seconds, it can deal 350k damage in less than 5 seconds.
Vengeance/Retaliator isn't worse, 47k damage in burst mode from 500m.
Shields are pretty much useless against this kind of firepower. Take a Bulwark: A Bulwark has 430k HP including the physical shield. Add the Aegis, and it will last 14 seconds against a Ming with either weapons, if it is in range. Shield regeneration simply doesn't matter a lot against this kind of DPS, it may give you a second or two extra. Raijin, F-Falcon, you name it, none of them will last a long time. Any robot is chewed up in 15 seconds or less against a Ming unless it uses cover or stealth.
So you've got two options: (1) Lock them down (with lockdown ammo and weapons like Pulsars), (2) get beacons somehow or (3) tickle them as much as you can. I'll deal with the tickling here, because lockdown is a purely defensive measure which doesn't help if you're down on beacons and the titans bar your way to whatever beacon you need to get. As for beacons, besides the obvious choice (Loki) I do think the Ao Jun is the best bot to get beacons, because it can cover a lot of ground in a short time and get to a beacon (if there is one without a titan squatting on it). You'll need phase shift and some pilot skills however. For a longer discussion, see this post.
On to the tickling. I do think that Ao Jun and greek bots (especially Ares) are the best bots, as they give you a chance to fire even if the Ming faces you (and sneak in some more fire if it doesn't). Bots like Tempest, Viper or Nucleon Behemoth/Fury sound great in theory, but if the reds have the beacon bar and are hanging back 590m, what can you do? Like lockdown, these builds are purely defensive. I want a bot that can do both, pressure or even turn a beacon and do damage against titans. And as titans just melt any shield, you'll need bots that have an impenetrable shield (Ares) or stealth (Ao Jun).
Weapon DPS
Ming has 800k HP and 150 DP in flight, which comes out at 60% damage reduction. Which is fairly significant, and vastly increases the efficiency of weapons bypassing DR.
The net damage listed here is against a flying Ming (reduced to 40% of listed DPS). Add 250 DP on the ground, cutting this in half. Titans are simply broken, totally. All weapons are assumed maxed mk2, but no damage bonus via modules, boosters or pilots. So 2 thermonukes will add 20% to the listed values.
So, what kind of damage can you do? - Best non-titan Ming counter IMO is Viper Ao Jun, which can do 13.2k corrosion damage per second independent of the DP and whether the Ming is on the ground or not. Plus 9,8k net DPS from the regular Viper damage. Add up to 38k corrosion from the Ao Jun built-in Ember per flight (you would have to hit 100% of your fuel though). Accuracy is pretty good even at 500m. Still takes a minute to bring down a Ming, even if it doesn't heal.
With 10s reload, that's 23k net burst DPS (15s) or 14k net cycle DPS. The bot has to be in range for the titan weapons, hence you'll need the ability to get airborne whenever it fires at you.
One full clip from 2 Vipers gives you close to 350k damage to the Ming. Of course it will heal, but still, that's nearly half of the HP.
- Next best counter would be Avenger Ao Jun. Two Avengers have a cycle damage of ~750k, doing 300k net damage in flight if close enough. And the Ao Jun has the crucial ability to fly and hit the Ming without being fired at. (Of course there are usually other pesky AJs with Lee out there.) Not quite sure about the accuracy, I figure it may be around 50% at max distance. This would give 10k net burst DPS or 6k net cycle DPS, with up to double that value from close range (which you can pull off if airborne).
But that's less than half of the Viper damage, a full clip does about 150k damage. It will take 6 full clips to kill a Ming, if it doesn't heal. 3 full clips if you somehow can get really close.
- Glacier Ao Jun has the advantage of the quick burst, as it can unload a whole clip during flight. But the big drawback is that it needs to get within 300m. They do 125k net cycle damage (one burst), but just 6k net cycle DPS due to the long reload, plus bonus for damage against frozen bots. Personally, I often find myself fighting Mings that hang back 600m, so I'll still prefer Avengers as they allow me much more time to find a landing spot, and they have more DPS up close.
If freezing adds 25% damage, we'll still be looking at 2.5 minutes to kill a Ming, if it doesn't heal.
- What about Nucleons? Even with the buff in v6.2, Avengers still outdamage Nucleons against titans from 300m and closer, and are pretty much equal from 450m (see this discussion). Nucleons are better against normal bots than Avengers (due to the smaller hit box, where the accuracy of the Nucleons can work its magic). I figure that a pair of Nucleons will do about 350k damage in 10 seconds against a normal target, or 130k against a Ming in flight, giving 13k burst DPS and maybe 9k cycle DPS (with cooldowns as necessary) from 450m. From point blank range, we'd get up to 18k DPS.
- I have to add the Atomizer/Quarker Ares here. It has a tougher time getting into cover than the Ao Jun (I know, I run both), but hey, let's look at the numbers. Weapons have a very respectable 37k DPS, or 14.7k net DPS. In a simulation I found that the accuracy against a titan is very good from 450m even if the weapon is overheated. At full overheat (past 10s) the damage is reduced pretty significantly, so a smart pilot will let the weapons cool down and start firing again. But we still have 14.7k net burst DPS and close to 10k net cycle DPS with cooldowns. A bit higher than the Avenger Ao Jun, but the Ao Jun has the "get out of jail card" with the flight, while the Ares must crawl to safety if in trouble.
- Honorable mention is Tempest Behemoth. They can do 654k damage in one cycle (12s) without DR. Not sure about the accuracy against a Ming from 800m, should be much better than the accuracy mentioned in the Wiki (34%). Let's say 50%, they still do about 130k net damage per cycle. That's 11k net burst DPS or 6k net cycle DPS. With the big advantage of being a build that can hit Mings from 600+ meters, outside their range. And the damage increases if the distance is below 800m (unlike the Flux), again you can double the damage if you're close enough. But inside titan range you're probably toast in a few seconds, unless you found a really good spot to fire over so that only the weapons are visible.
Some other builds that have been suggested:
- With 4 Flux on a Behemoth, you'll do about 8.8k cycle DPS against a normal target. 150 DP will cut this to 3.6k net cycle DPS. Burst is very short compared to other weapons (4.5s), with 12k net burst DPS. You won't put the fear of god into a Ming with 800k HP.
So basically, what you gain is only the ability to lock down the Ming if you run Lockdown Ammo. And the ability costs PC and reloads for a long time.
- Bots like an Atomizer Leech are just a clone of the Atomizer/Quarker Ares without the impenetrable shield. DPS is a maybe 20% higher than the Ares (2 Atomizers aren't that much better than 2 Quarkers), and titans will chew up a Leech just like that.
Summary
So Vipers are my clear favorite. Then come Nucleons and Avengers. Avengers are clearly better against titans, but many an Ao Jun died on the ground when reloading, killed by a faster bot or another Ao Jun. So I'd take Avengers as specific anti-titan weapon, and Nucleons for a swiss army knife bot. Glaciers are still an option, but I wouldn't use them specifically on an anti-titan bot.
I'll upgrade my Viper Ao Jun to 12.2 now, and slap a thermonuke on it, to go with the cloaking device and last stand. (An overdrive sounds nice in theory, but once you're down to 50% health you're close to death, usually.) Might try to get a pilot skill that adds a few more percent. And I guess I'll keep my Avenger Ao Jun for now, as I don't feel that Nucleons would make it that much better.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Aug 8, 2020 13:24:16 GMT -5
Bulwark does far better than you think. If you get enough shield health and go out when they just finished shooting at someone then you can stay out there a while.
Walk back into cover whenever the shield gets close to death rinse and repeat. I have killed an entire ao ming like this with redeemers (bad against titans though, NGL). It isn't the best but you can do well with it.
My main titan killer is my avenger shredder mercury. You can lock them so you can rip into them with the avenger or so they can't try to get an angle on you when you are in cover. Also lets others get in close since half the time they can't move.
Include the stealth jump and long stealth time on the ground and you have a very good ming annoyer that can help teammates as well.
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Post by balrog89 on Aug 8, 2020 14:19:52 GMT -5
Damn good writeup.
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Post by Plato-Egypt on Aug 8, 2020 20:42:24 GMT -5
Its only a matter of time before the Ming gets nerfed.
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Post by bahogilok on Aug 8, 2020 21:19:48 GMT -5
Great write up. Would you think viper behemoth with a few cloaking devices is viable? Might be able to survive long enough to maim an Ao Ming, and even if you can only do it once trading a normal bot for a titan is a pretty good deal.
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Post by frunobulax on Aug 9, 2020 1:01:30 GMT -5
Great write up. Would you think viper behemoth with a few cloaking devices is viable? Might be able to survive long enough to maim an Ao Ming, and even if you can only do it once trading a normal bot for a titan is a pretty good deal. I used to run Trident Fury extensively. The trick is to find a good spot where your body is covered but your top weapons can shoot over the cover. These spots exist on most maps, although some have been nerfed (for example on Castle the Fury was able to shoot over the little wall close to the lower bridge, but now it can't). Of course the Fury can change positions, and adjust much easier to enemies moving on it. And this works well only defensively -- as soon as you have to push, better ditch the bot or start walking into the open.
I never was a fan of any bots that needed to remain stationary. I ran all of the spider bots at some point (Raijin, Fujin, Weyland), and always found that a smart enemy will use positions where it can fire at you while you can't fire at him, or at the very least stay in cover and fight your teammates, while you have to watch.
So, essentially, I'm not sold on a Viper Behemoth. I have only one cloaking device so I can't check what happens if you combine two, but if the mechanic is similar to last stand then the duration of the cloak will not be changed. If you have maxed devices, last stand and cloak buy you 9 seconds, which is nice. But if you need a beacon, what will you do? A Behemoth works well with weapons where you can firmly stay out of the enemy range (Flux, Tempests, maybe Tridents although they are bugged right now). But with titans having 600m range, they always have the advantage on Vipers on a stationary target.
A healthy nerf to titans would be to cut the range of their weapons. They have the advantage in health, firepower AND range over all normal bots. But it won't happen unless Pixo is sold again, I'm afraid.
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Post by bahogilok on Aug 9, 2020 2:20:11 GMT -5
IIRC multiple cloaking units give an extra invisibility period, so 3 could potentially allow for a total of 15 seconds. I’d imagine that’s more than enough time to stand in the open and empty an entire clip at a Ming, with enough time to get back into cover. But you do make pretty good points
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Post by frunobulax on Aug 9, 2020 8:19:31 GMT -5
IIRC multiple cloaking units give an extra invisibility period, so 3 could potentially allow for a total of 15 seconds. I’d imagine that’s more than enough time to stand in the open and empty an entire clip at a Ming, with enough time to get back into cover. But you do make pretty good points That would make it VERY interesting to combine 2 cloaking units with last stand. Has anyone verified it? There is no clear description when the CU is activated... Does it depend on the level?
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Post by bahogilok on Aug 9, 2020 8:40:35 GMT -5
IIRC multiple cloaking units give an extra invisibility period, so 3 could potentially allow for a total of 15 seconds. I’d imagine that’s more than enough time to stand in the open and empty an entire clip at a Ming, with enough time to get back into cover. But you do make pretty good points That would make it VERY interesting to combine 2 cloaking units with last stand. Has anyone verified it? There is no clear description when the CU is activated... Does it depend on the level?
On the wiki it says the module gets activated when you lose 10%hp in 3 seconds, level increases duration only. Considering at max level it gives 5 seconds of stealth, it is superior to last stand when it comes to titans since they cannot counter stealth, and triggering early means you have less chances of having a weapon blown off. I have had some success running a level 1 CU, and I’d imagine it would even be better at higher levels and if they were stacked. A video by adrian Chong showing triple maxed CUs: |
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Post by Oliver Kloesov on Aug 11, 2020 7:22:24 GMT -5
Its only a matter of time before the Ming gets nerfed. I nerfed the AM: With my Arthur, Nightingale, and Loki. |
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Post by Plato-Egypt on Aug 11, 2020 19:55:14 GMT -5
Its only a matter of time before the Ming gets nerfed. I nerfed the AM: With my Arthur, Nightingale, and Loki. In the mid leagues, its the destroyer of the Earth. |
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Post by psychopsyd on Aug 11, 2020 22:02:56 GMT -5
Its only a matter of time before the Ming gets nerfed. I nerfed the AM: With my Arthur, Nightingale, and Loki. I try to save my GALE for "TITAN TIME". No...I don't hunt TITANS with him... I cut their fire by 87.5% and heal teammates... hopefully ARTHURS....or NODENS. |
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Post by cookieDad on Aug 12, 2020 23:53:47 GMT -5
Fantastic write-up. It confirms what I notice with vipers. The reload is a bit of a bummer though, so it is crucial not to get caught with your pants down. In real game-play, I start to favor nucleons because you are never really out of ammo. Ditched the avengers some time ago, and also the glaciers. Latter however are quite effective to hurt Arthurs, which are as big a pest as AMs. l》THE MACHINE《l a lvl 10 mercury has 133K health. My AM, which is not maxed yet, could theoretically do 87967 dmg/sec, if including the Antimatters and the additional damage by the bot. That means 1.5 seconds shooting from 499 meters distance. Your avengers will not hit me in that time. Not saying that this is balanced game-play, it is exactly the reason why all titans should be nerfed. I do understand your liking for Mercuries, dont get me wrong, at least they require skillful play, as opposed to any titan. dmg calculation per second burst DPS: 1 retalliator=19656,1 gendarme=12500,2*cuirassier=18400. Total 50556. Two AMRs plus xtra bot dmg: +27%+27%+20%=+74%. Total 87967 burst/sec. Way OP for a titan that is not even maxed. |
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Post by ironstar on Aug 13, 2020 2:14:22 GMT -5
Unfortunately the only real counter is another titan with the 100% damage mitigation from the maxed Alpha weapons.
Never the less it was a really good write up and an enjoyable read.
A deathmark glacier Jun can do some real damage (especially to a shielded Arthur) but you are just so vulnerable without the phase shift. Really need to stick your landing 100% every time.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Aug 14, 2020 2:34:11 GMT -5
Fantastic write-up. It confirms what I notice with vipers. The reload is a bit of a bummer though, so it is crucial not to get caught with your pants down. In real game-play, I start to favor nucleons because you are never really out of ammo. Ditched the avengers some time ago, and also the glaciers. Latter however are quite effective to hurt Arthurs, which are as big a pest as AMs. l》THE MACHINE《l a lvl 10 mercury has 133K health. My AM, which is not maxed yet, could theoretically do 87967 dmg/sec, if including the Antimatters and the additional damage by the bot. That means 1.5 seconds shooting from 499 meters distance. Your avengers will not hit me in that time. Not saying that this is balanced game-play, it is exactly the reason why all titans should be nerfed. I do understand your liking for Mercuries, dont get me wrong, at least they require skillful play, as opposed to any titan. dmg calculation per second burst DPS: 1 retalliator=19656,1 gendarme=12500,2*cuirassier=18400. Total 50556. Two AMRs plus xtra bot dmg: +27%+27%+20%=+74%. Total 87967 burst/sec. Way OP for a titan that is not even maxed. it isn't about how fast they can kill me, however. I played -and still play- lots of shooter games and in my time I have learned to only peek out when their back is turned, they aren't ready for me (trying to get a lock but in other games trying to find me or setup in the right spot) or when they are already focused upon someone else. I step out and fire and as soon as their head moves towards me even a fraction of an inch I jump for the stealth. The only time this move doesn't work is when I am already down some HP and they spin and shoot at the same time and they get lucky. That or they are focusing me but then I can just pop out of cover with the jump instead of stepping into open range. Factor in the 10-15sec of stealth with 5sec being on the ground (allowing me to get to cover safely without much problem) and there is rarely if ever a time for them to hit me. The rest of which (locking down while on cooldown for instance) can be safely accomplished by corner shooting or moving while they are distracted. |
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