6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 24, 2020 11:24:02 GMT -5
Let's not RANT Completely but try for Some LEGITIMATE CRITICISM
The CORE PROBLEM as I see it, is that the game is only universally fun and satisfying when you stand a legitimate chance of victory. When you are overmatched from the start or saddled with LEAVERS or DROPPERS or SURVIVAL CAMPERS or SELF-SABOTAGING TANKERS (all of which are also symptoms of this problem), then it spoils the game. And you have NO CONTROL over it. Pix has put all their energy into monetizing the game and creating cool inventory, not improving the gameplay experience. And it shows. I know there are some players who get off on destroying inferior bots. The one-shot-KILL videos are proof of that, but it can only be achieved by spending a fortune or using the admin test accounts. Manny and Adrian, etc. get to do it for promo reasons, but even they play lesser hangers of their own because they are more challenging and cost effective. And let's not even touch on the psychology that drives OP killing sprees.
The original game design is simple and solid and the tactics over twitch-play was excellent. But the game has steadily diminished in the light of pay-to-win and OP bots and weapons. It is getting less interesting over time - which is the death-knell of any game.
Nothing is more satisfying than beating the odds, but they have to be close otherwise it just is a blowout. And as every pilot knows, blowouts happen thru no fault of your own. And while there can be some self-revelation in experiencing total defeat, life is better at that lesson. In game world, it is still satisfying when someone out-plays you, but NOT when they just have better gear. You have to acknowledge innovative tactics, but NEVER the size of their wallets.
SO- what do you think are the legit criticisms of the game and what do you think Pix has done right? Feel free to RANT a bit too.
ALSO - I'm curious what other games do you know that maintain a better balance of P2W versus satisfying gameplay - are able to keep the game interesting but fair? I think it is a hard balance to keep - and, I think, Pix is losing that one over time, but I have to give them props for keeping it going for so long.
Go for it:
|
|
|
|
Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on May 24, 2020 11:41:35 GMT -5
I don't have much to add other than I didn't shift the way I looked at the game... just the way I played it. I took my viewpont down from the Match level to the individual encounter level. If I, as an underleveled player, can have at least two good encounters in a game against either equal or higher leveled players, or lead a fun Benny Hill chase in a Loki, or whatever else feels fun, then I look at that match as a win regardless of the result.
Basically, what bothers you does so because you still consider this game competitive... it's not, unless you are at the highest levels in clans that squad and compete for wins, points, etc., with mostly equal gear.
It has become more of a grind/farming game at most other levels... with some fluctuations as to the degree depending on your league/platform.
Of course, this is only IMO, YMMV
|
|
|
|
Post by Sgt. Beacon on May 24, 2020 15:57:34 GMT -5
I never was interested in grinding for this or that. I played 「dookie」 load of games cause it was fun-losing or winning. I'm still playing, but I do play less than I used to. I don't think I or others like the direction Pix took-I think that's a given. But, what they've done enough people have gone with it to make it worth their while. As the game not being fair. I don't think it was ever meant to be fair. And I never wanted it to be. I feel the idea of fairness is where we got the MM/RNG we have now. And I feel the MM/RNG is far from ideal.
|
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 25, 2020 11:47:39 GMT -5
I don't have much to add other than I didn't shift the way I looked at the game... just the way I played it. I took my viewpont down from the Match level to the individual encounter level. If I, as an underleveled player, can have at least two good encounters in a game against either equal or higher leveled players, or lead a fun Benny Hill chase in a Loki, or whatever else feels fun, then I look at that match as a win regardless of the result. Basically, what bothers you does so because you still consider this game competitive... it's not, unless you are at the highest levels in clans that squad and compete for wins, points, etc., with mostly equal gear. It has become more of a grind/farming game at most other levels... with some fluctuations as to the degree depending on your league/platform. Of course, this is only IMO, YMMV No, I think you're right. You have to divorce yourself from the competition and enjoy the ride. And it can be a fun ride. But it was fun to COMPETE back when . . . and on the lower levels. Now, its become: identify the OP MK2s and hope you have equivalent OP MK2s on your team to compensate. Try to survive long enough to make a dent. But when you suddenly find yourself surrounded by 150 Mings fully loaded with leveled Cataclysms and Cyclones, you have to think - what's the point? It takes me right out of the game and makes me wonder: Someone was willing to spend a fortune just for this moment? Talk about a hollow victory and a crush on the rush. |
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 25, 2020 12:18:30 GMT -5
I never was interested in grinding for this or that. I played ?dookie? load of games cause it was fun-losing or winning. I'm still playing, but I do play less than I used to. I don't think I or others like the direction Pix took-I think that's a given. But, what they've done enough people have gone with it to make it worth their while. As the game not being fair. I don't think it was ever meant to be fair. And I never wanted it to be. I feel the idea of fairness is where we got the MM/RNG we have now. And I feel the MM/RNG is far from ideal. Props for that analysis. Yeah, "fair" is not really the right word for an online game, but I'm not sure what describes the ideal game state better? Maybe just "satisfying?" See, it even used to be MORE FUN to lose. And I think they've complicated the game with too many kinds of upgrades, abilities, and variables for any RNG algorithms to balance. Every time they introduce a new dimension of play (pilots with abilities ranging from crap to OP) (teleport superpowers) (titans with - well everything!) it exponentially complicates the match process beyond their ability to manage. BUT it also diminishes the player experience. And no amount of buffing and nerfing can keep up with it. There's a reason chess has survived centuries without flying rooks or phase shifting pawns. At a certain point it outpaces any strategy and just becomes a Radom Outcome Generator based almost entirely on the match engine - which, I think, is clearly what players have identified as a key failure (intuitively, if not directly). But I haven't seen too many games of this type that manage to pull it off. And War Robots had a great start and kept it going for a long time. I don't know if I can identify a game of this type that has managed it better. It may just be the life cycle of this kind of game. But it "feels" like it could be improved - and that, as you say, is so wide-spread at this point that it is a "given." |
|
|
|
Post by Sgt. Beacon on May 25, 2020 13:56:38 GMT -5
I never was interested in grinding for this or that. I played ?dookie? load of games cause it was fun-losing or winning. I'm still playing, but I do play less than I used to. I don't think I or others like the direction Pix took-I think that's a given. But, what they've done enough people have gone with it to make it worth their while. As the game not being fair. I don't think it was ever meant to be fair. And I never wanted it to be. I feel the idea of fairness is where we got the MM/RNG we have now. And I feel the MM/RNG is far from ideal. Props for that analysis. Yeah, "fair" is not really the right word for an online game, but I'm not sure what describes the ideal game state better? Maybe just "satisfying?" See, it even used to be MORE FUN to lose. And I think they've complicated the game with too many kinds of upgrades, abilities, and variables for any RNG algorithms to balance. Every time they introduce a new dimension of play (pilots with abilities ranging from crap to OP) (teleport superpowers) (titans with - well everything!) it exponentially complicates the match process beyond their ability to manage. BUT it also diminishes the player experience. And no amount of buffing and nerfing can keep up with it. There's a reason chess has survived centuries without flying rooks or phase shifting pawns. At a certain point it outpaces any strategy and just becomes a Radom Outcome Generator based almost entirely on the match engine - which, I think, is clearly what players have identified as a key failure (intuitively, if not directly). But I haven't seen too many games of this type that manage to pull it off. And War Robots had a great start and kept it going for a long time. I don't know if I can identify a game of this type that has managed it better. It may just be the life cycle of this kind of game. But it "feels" like it could be improved - and that, as you say, is so wide-spread at this point that it is a "given." I agree. The one direction that could of been taken is new maps. I think myself and others were/are ok with new bots and weapons added. But, not at the pace they took. And adding TITANS-just ew. New maps, and expanding/improving old maps would have been great. Expanding the clan wars. Add ladders that Pix would run. Have the higher tier competition paying in to take part in-much like bowling leagues. But, also just have some for fun. I think they could of made so much more money than they have. |
|
|
|
Post by rags on May 25, 2020 14:39:27 GMT -5
3 letters
L
A
G
The hilarious part is I’ve put up with everything else. I’ve still been a dolphin through all their crap. But they can’t even bother to make a game that isn’t a laggy POS. That’s how they reward u.
The core problem of the game is this:
Zero care for their players, just use them until the money stops
|
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 25, 2020 15:00:31 GMT -5
Props for that analysis. Yeah, "fair" is not really the right word for an online game, but I'm not sure what describes the ideal game state better? Maybe just "satisfying?" See, it even used to be MORE FUN to lose. And I think they've complicated the game with too many kinds of upgrades, abilities, and variables for any RNG algorithms to balance. Every time they introduce a new dimension of play (pilots with abilities ranging from crap to OP) (teleport superpowers) (titans with - well everything!) it exponentially complicates the match process beyond their ability to manage. BUT it also diminishes the player experience. And no amount of buffing and nerfing can keep up with it. There's a reason chess has survived centuries without flying rooks or phase shifting pawns. At a certain point it outpaces any strategy and just becomes a Radom Outcome Generator based almost entirely on the match engine - which, I think, is clearly what players have identified as a key failure (intuitively, if not directly). But I haven't seen too many games of this type that manage to pull it off. And War Robots had a great start and kept it going for a long time. I don't know if I can identify a game of this type that has managed it better. It may just be the life cycle of this kind of game. But it "feels" like it could be improved - and that, as you say, is so wide-spread at this point that it is a "given." I agree. The one direction that could of been taken is new maps. I think myself and others were/are ok with new bots and weapons added. But, not at the pace they took. And adding TITANS-just ew. New maps, and expanding/improving old maps would have been great. Expanding the clan wars. Add ladders that Pix would run. Have the higher tier competition paying in to take part in-much like bowling leagues. But, also just have some for fun. I think they could of made so much more money than they have. |
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 25, 2020 15:12:10 GMT -5
I agree. The one direction that could of been taken is new maps. I think myself and others were/are ok with new bots and weapons added. But, not at the pace they took. And adding TITANS-just ew. New maps, and expanding/improving old maps would have been great. Expanding the clan wars. Add ladders that Pix would run. Have the higher tier competition paying in to take part in-much like bowling leagues. But, also just have some for fun. I think they could of made so much more money than they have. Right on! I don't get why Pix lets coordinated Champion Clan Squads stomp random independent pickups - other than laziness in organizing better competitions. It cannot be much fun for MK2 Clans with hangers full of Leeches, AoJuns, and AoMings to crush Level 8 Griffins and a few random indy Champs - almost always running inferior hangers OR trying to play un-maxed or baby hangers for the fun of it. Meanwhile, I just got stomped by a clan swarm with 150 Nodens & maxed Teslas and they have been out what? less than a month? Is that fun for anyone? Is that a win? Seriously, BOWLING figured that out a long time ago - hence Handicaps and Leagues. Not complicated. |
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on Jun 23, 2020 11:24:50 GMT -5
SO: After that lovely video explaining match making, I thought for fun (following my latest overwhelming loss) that I would calculate the total league points for each team and, no surprise, the difference between my team and theirs was 6053. That's the equivalent of another whole Champion League player (with higher points than anyone on my team, but not theirs, FYI). What is that - 20% above the "supposed" maximum difference allowed? Pretty much the same difference as having your highest ranked player leave after match start. SO, put as politely as possible, there are some "INCONSISTENCIES" in their calculations.
|
|
|
|
Post by Replicant on Jun 23, 2020 13:02:19 GMT -5
SO: After that lovely video explaining match making, I thought for fun (following my latest overwhelming loss) that I would calculate the total league points for each team and, no surprise, the difference between my team and theirs was 6053. That's the equivalent of another whole Champion League player (with higher points than anyone on my team, but not theirs, FYI). What is that - 20% above the "supposed" maximum difference allowed? Pretty much the same difference as having your highest ranked player leave after match start. SO, put as politely as possible, there are some "INCONSISTENCIES" in their calculations. You might try recalculating each teams league score, but reduce the portion of a league score higher than 5,000 by a factor of 10 and see how much disparity you get. (e.g. someone with a 12,000 score gets treated as if their score were (12,000-5,000)/10+5,000 = 5,700. I pretty much agree with your OP. A few years ago I was ticked about having to face bots with a 30% Firepower advantage (and maybe a 15% health advantage). In hindsight, that gap seems quaint. You can't get back to that game from here though. There are too many binary infinities to balance (e.g. Greek Bots, Stealth Bots, Quantum Radar, Last Stand, Flavor-of-the-month invulnerabilities). And then there's titans... Remember when dash bots were a thing? <giggles> |
|
|
|
Post by Cdr. Crimmins on Jun 25, 2020 10:54:10 GMT -5
SO: After that lovely video explaining match making, I thought for fun (following my latest overwhelming loss) that I would calculate the total league points for each team and, no surprise, the difference between my team and theirs was 6053. That's the equivalent of another whole Champion League player (with higher points than anyone on my team, but not theirs, FYI). What is that - 20% above the "supposed" maximum difference allowed? Pretty much the same difference as having your highest ranked player leave after match start. SO, put as politely as possible, there are some "INCONSISTENCIES" in their calculations. You lucky devil. Had a recent game where the cup totals per team were 29k to 55k, for a differential of 26k. |
|
|
|
Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jun 25, 2020 14:25:41 GMT -5
SO: After that lovely video explaining match making, I thought for fun (following my latest overwhelming loss) that I would calculate the total league points for each team and, no surprise, the difference between my team and theirs was 6053. That's the equivalent of another whole Champion League player (with higher points than anyone on my team, but not theirs, FYI). What is that - 20% above the "supposed" maximum difference allowed? Pretty much the same difference as having your highest ranked player leave after match start. SO, put as politely as possible, there are some "INCONSISTENCIES" in their calculations. You might try recalculating each teams league score, but reduce the portion of a league score higher than 5,000 by a factor of 10 and see how much disparity you get. (e.g. someone with a 12,000 score gets treated as if their score were (12,000-5,000)/10+5,000 = 5,700. I pretty much agree with your OP. A few years ago I was ticked about having to face bots with a 30% Firepower advantage (and maybe a 15% health advantage). In hindsight, that gap seems quaint. You can't get back to that game from here though. There are too many binary infinities to balance (e.g. Greek Bots, Stealth Bots, Quantum Radar, Last Stand, Flavor-of-the-month invulnerabilities). And then there's titans... Remember when dash bots were a thing? <giggles> I do remember this formula being spread around as part of the equation a while back, but no context is coming to mind as far as where it came from... can you divulge said state secrets? |
|
|
|
Post by Replicant on Jun 25, 2020 16:36:01 GMT -5
You might try recalculating each teams league score, but reduce the portion of a league score higher than 5,000 by a factor of 10 and see how much disparity you get. (e.g. someone with a 12,000 score gets treated as if their score were (12,000-5,000)/10+5,000 = 5,700. I pretty much agree with your OP. A few years ago I was ticked about having to face bots with a 30% Firepower advantage (and maybe a 15% health advantage). In hindsight, that gap seems quaint. You can't get back to that game from here though. There are too many binary infinities to balance (e.g. Greek Bots, Stealth Bots, Quantum Radar, Last Stand, Flavor-of-the-month invulnerabilities). And then there's titans... Remember when dash bots were a thing? <giggles> I do remember this formula being spread around as part of the equation a while back, but no context is coming to mind as far as where it came from... can you divulge said state secrets? The oldest reference I can find to this is a post by Dredd77 back on May 22, 2017. Here's the forum link: war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/7500/changes-leagues-matchmaking-june-2017?page=1You'll note the link he provided warrobots.com/en/posts/102 has since been 404'd. |
|
|
|
Post by mechtout on Jun 25, 2020 18:34:32 GMT -5
Catch me about two years ago and I would go on and on about how pix is holding this game back from being a major draw, but now I know its fruitless. I'm sure you'll get a lot of input
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 20:22:13 GMT -5
I think the core, fundamental game of War Robots is one of the most enjoyable I have ever played. I'm suitably engrossed in enough matches to keep me logging in daily.
I accept the game that it is, and has become, but I must admit I'm disappointed when I consider what it could be/have been.
It's WAY too far gone now of course, but I would have loved if it had stayed away from the fancy: lasers, DR, Transcendence, for lack of a better word: unrealistic. Yes, I am aware that giant walking robots aren't realistic, but hopefully you know what I mean. There was a sweet spot when all the robots and weapons at least didn't evoke magic or offend the laws of physics quite so much. Weapons reflected real-world weapons. I would have loved it if the game had stayed on that path.
Crucially, I think Pix focuses completely on selling winning weapons and bots, and completely neglects fun weapons and bots. There is almost no attention given to releasing new things that are simply fun. Fun being justification enough.
I do miss the simpler game of c. 3 years ago, but credit to Pix, I still log in every day, and grind my sweet 「bum-bum」 off.
|
|
|
|
Post by Replicant on Jun 25, 2020 22:10:17 GMT -5
<snip> I would have loved if it had stayed away from the fancy: lasers, DR, Transcendence, for lack of a better word: unrealistic. Yes, I am aware that giant walking robots aren't realistic, but hopefully you know what I mean. <snip>. For weapons, Gekko and Zeus is about as far as tech should have gone (with a carve-out for Trebs and maybe plasma-throwers). The former are theoretically viable now, and plasma weapons are reasonably science-fiction crunchy plus they don't define the meta. Physical/Energy shields made for good rock/paper/scissors game-play. No issues with Jump, Glide and Rush. Stealth on a light bot with two light hardpoints was fine. Form-changing is fine (e.g. Shapeshift, Bastion Mode, Sentry Mode, Assault Mode, Quickdraw, Siege Mode) with the caveate that... DR should never have been a thing - replace with Physical/Energy Shields, and... As much as I like healing, as an aura it really doesn't fit. Animate some repair drones and we're good. Suppression and Snare effects would have been fine as an EMP effect. Lockdown/stun is crappy gameplay. Ditto Retribution, Repulse, Flying Stealth, Teleportation and invulnerability effects. The Dragon bots would have been more interesting if their base mode used wings as physical shields while the ability exchanged the physical shields for Glide and the extra weapon. |
|
