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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Dec 14, 2017 19:09:04 GMT -5
The latest weapon released on the test server is the Redeemer. Ironically named, it is a heavy version of the Taran. It fires bursts of blue Plasma just about half as often as the Taran, while dealing significantly more damage. How much more?
At level 8, the Taran deals 1,760 damage per bolt, or 7,040 per burst. Over a span of about 10 seconds, a single Taran deals 56,320 damage.
At level 8, a Redeemer deals 7,690 damage per bolt. It fires two bolts per burst and can shoot five bursts, or 10 total bolts per salvo. That's about 76,900 damage per 10 seconds for a single Redeemer.
Now, three of these on top of a Fury means 230,700 damage per Salvo. At level 8. It deals enough damage to kill any bot setup in the game in a single salvo. The problem with this is that the Fury is bulky, slow, and squishy. It likely won't last long enough to unload a full salvo with all three Redeemers in tact.
So what is the likely host for this new weapon? A bot coming out of a short-lived semi-retirement - the Lancelot. A Lancelot with two Tarans and a Redeemer deal 189,540 damage per salvo. To put that into perspective, a level 8 Leo has 176,000 HP. The only thing in the game that can survive this salvo is a Raijin with its shields up. So while being able to kill pretty much anything in one salvo, the Lancelot also sports three front facing physical shields as well as the rush ability to quickly engage or disengage. The physical shield being of utmost importance in a meta that is pushing more and more towards energy weapons.
There are certainly things that look decent on paper and don't pan out in practice - hello, Vortex. So how does the Redeemer work in practice? Well, let's just say paper doesn't quite do this one justice. And even on paper it is overpowered. I ran a hangar with 5 identical bots. Lancelots with Redeemers and Tarans. Since it's test server, all were level 8 of course. I played 10 games or so, and in most games, about 50-75% of other bots were either Lancelots or Raijin, meaning lots of physical shields and lots of unregistered damage. Every single game (not some, not most, every singe one) I registered between 1.2 million and 1.4 million damage. The average was about 1.3 million. Per game. With level 8 weapons against level 8 opponents. Now consider the 9% increase in damage per level, and an average increase in enemy HP by 9% each level. At 12/12, this hangar would deal 2.52 million damage per game on average. Throw in Mk II 12/12, and that is over 3 million average damage per game. That's absurd.
The one hitch in all of this? Well, this hitch segues us perfectly into our second topic - the state of the test server. What is that hitch? The test server did not include Dash bots. Nor did it include Shocktrains. Both of which would likely play a large role in the effectiveness of not only the weapon, but the particular build I described above. The effect likely would have been negative, albeit still resulting in a very powerful weapon - of the overly nature. Since the current meta is almost 100% Dash bots, why would the test server not include them? After all, isn't the test server supposed to test how new content would perform on the live server?
Pixonic would likely have you believe that they don't include current meta equipment because they want people to test the new stuff. In reality, you ensure that you can't obtain reliable test data when you exclude the most commonly used builds in the game. So why do they really exclude things from the test server? Because it isn't a true test server. The data gathered is useless. The feedback received is useless. It serves one purpose - marketing.
The test server, in its current state, is nothing more than an advertising tool. They show you this awesome, overpowered new content. This results in many people getting hyped over the content and wanting it before its even released. It gets people talking about how awesome it is and arguing over its effectiveness before you can even have it. (I wonder if Apple is ever going to charge them for stealing that marketing technique) You get to see how overpowered the content is before its available, which makes you want to be one of the first to have it. So people buy it immediately when it comes out.
So why exclude the Dashes? While the weapon would be overpowered still, the Dashes would make it slightly less effective. Additionally, many people would just use Shocktrain Haechi, because it's the flavor of the month. So it would create a test server that isn't entirely filled with Redeemers. They want everyone to sport a Redeemer on test server so that everyone sees and understands how powerful it is. This creates the biggest buzz, which in turn creates the largest expectation and demand.
This weapon will likely have a price tag on par with the Shocktrain, and maybe even more expensive at the $150 range. It is not a Redeemer in the sense of getting back to a trusting company-player relationship, but more of a Redeemer in the sense of getting back to their usual player monetization strategy. Release power, and charge accordingly.
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Post by bronzeknee on Dec 14, 2017 20:43:15 GMT -5
189,840 at level 8. At level 12 it will be ridiculous.
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Post by Gdu4ever on Dec 14, 2017 21:01:39 GMT -5
Never joined the test server, and thx for letting me know that it's intensionally biased from live server.
Saved my time.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Dec 14, 2017 21:01:47 GMT -5
Good insights, Greedy Panda. Your thoughts tie in well with what evidence there is of Pixonic's seemingly unwavering decision to strangle skill in favor of a "bigger club" mindset. They dont make money off player skills. I found it frustrating that Pixo is hell bent on shortening the game/increasing disparity between players increasing cycle gains they get from playing. It seems that if they can't convince you to spend or swindle you with their shennanigans (offers, BM, Royale) they'll happily piss you off into doing so (MM). But that was then. Not too affected by this nowadays, I got tired waiting for Pixo to "fix" things without making things worse. I previously deinstalled War Robots from every phone and tablet in my household since I don't want my kids near these greedy little 「dookie」s. I know I won't install nor allow the installation of any app connected to or endorsed by Pixonic or Mail.ru on any device. My relationship with Pixo is exactly the way we both want it. Transactional. If I want something and they are offering it at a price i find decent, then I'll bite. If not, they can bite me. Life is easier when you have no expectations AND no illusions about Pixo or Mail.ru. I stated previously in another thread that Pixo had made some changes that were positive. Its really up to them to either a) continue change in strategy and provide the new weapons at an affordable/grindable value or b) continue predatory pricing strategy as was prior to hover and storm. Their choice is their fate.
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Post by BigDud on Dec 14, 2017 21:55:39 GMT -5
I for one am not complaining. We all know the lancelot. All this will do is bring back the terror that is the fury trident, one of my favorite setups. RDB griffins also included.
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Post by T34 on Dec 14, 2017 22:51:13 GMT -5
Conveyor belt of new stuff now. So many it sort of leaves me unexcited. Hope it will be balanced in it final release form.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Dec 14, 2017 23:30:53 GMT -5
Scary. To be able to wipe out a mech in one salvo. A hulked out mk2 Inquisitor's mobility and stealth and Lancelots defense could limit potential counterplay and players control over game outcome. As if shocktrains chain wasnt enough.
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Post by T34 on Dec 14, 2017 23:54:24 GMT -5
Scary. To be able to wipe out a mech in one salvo. A hulked out mk2 Inquisitor's mobility and stealth and Lancelots defense could limit potential counterplay and players control over game outcome. As if shocktrains chain wasnt enough. Well, if you take the standard 10% increase per level that could translate to 337K at MK2 L12
But IMO the thing to watch out for is the release of a new bot which is similar to the carnage with special abilities (ie, 2 heavy slots and mobile). I can envisage the new meta (post dash). A trio of new bots but with two to three heavy slots. That would also solve the fury issue because that bot has not been replaced with something way more expensive.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Dec 15, 2017 0:18:16 GMT -5
Scary. To be able to wipe out a mech in one salvo. A hulked out mk2 Inquisitor's mobility and stealth and Lancelots defense could limit potential counterplay and players control over game outcome. As if shocktrains chain wasnt enough. Well, if you take the standard 10% increase per level that could translate to 337K at MK2 L12
But IMO the thing to watch out for is the release of a new bot which is similar to the carnage with special abilities (ie, 2 heavy slots and mobile). I can envisage the new meta (post dash). A trio of new bots but with two to three heavy slots. That would also solve the fury issue because that bot has not been replaced with something way more expensive.
Sadly, the era of slow bots will soon draw to a close with the way things are going. Few legacy bots are likely to stay relevant with the shift to more mobile ones and few mid to light will likely survive the power creep.
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Post by T34 on Dec 15, 2017 0:33:10 GMT -5
Well, if you take the standard 10% increase per level that could translate to 337K at MK2 L12
But IMO the thing to watch out for is the release of a new bot which is similar to the carnage with special abilities (ie, 2 heavy slots and mobile). I can envisage the new meta (post dash). A trio of new bots but with two to three heavy slots. That would also solve the fury issue because that bot has not been replaced with something way more expensive.
Sadly, the era of slow bots will soon draw to a close with the way things are going. Few legacy bots are likely to stay relevant with the shift to more mobile ones and few mid to light will likely survive the power creep. The power creep is incredibly large. It has to lead somewhere in the game design. This could be a stupid guess but I am tipping on a new set of OP bots that can withstand this level of punishment and dish out even more by using multiples of the new heavy weapons. Then the battle field is instantly transformed from the current meta and every currently existing bot is made obsolete. In effect the point and shoot game is resolved for the new mechs and the old mechs are made irrelevant.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Dec 15, 2017 0:58:27 GMT -5
Sadly, the era of slow bots will soon draw to a close with the way things are going. Few legacy bots are likely to stay relevant with the shift to more mobile ones and few mid to light will likely survive the power creep. The power creep is incredibly large. It has to lead somewhere in the game design. This could be a stupid guess but I am tipping on a new set of OP bots that can withstand this level of punishment and dish out even more by using multiples of the new heavy weapons. Then the battle field is instantly transformed from the current meta and every currently existing bot is made obsolete. In effect the point and shoot game is resolved for the new mechs and the old mechs are made irrelevant. We still dont have assault class mechs. Im betting thats where its going. Fingers crossed that it doesnt make current skills irrelevant by that time.
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Post by hon_shu on Dec 15, 2017 2:53:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the write-up, ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ. I do believe the test server is used for actual debugging of the new features/items as well. Think of damage not registering etc. I totally agree that the test server is obviously NOT used for any balancing. How could the weapon be balanced without having the most important bots and weapons in the match? The only thing that weapons are balanced against is the current cash flow at Pixonic. The lower the cash flow, the higher the damage and hence the price of a new weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 3:11:01 GMT -5
The thing I would add, paper panic aside, is that it's too bad content keeps getting rushed like this, while upgrade times and acquisition costs are higher than ever.
A year ago, I set my sights on a Lance. It took me 5 months to get it and level it, but when I did, it was so satisfying. And still relevant.
Today, you could start grinding for an ember Carnage (tip: don't waste your time), but in the months it will take you to buy and level it, it will likely be obsolete!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 5:13:04 GMT -5
Don't worry men, the Ember is even more powerful, it ignores all types of shields and has splash damage, so you can hit bots which are partially behind cover. Of course it has to be aimed, but overall I think it's slightly superior. The Redeemer is "balanced" if you look at its damage compared to Tarans (lol I admit it's funny to say), the problem is that every weapon deals too much damage in this game, and the Mk2 upgrades make things even worse. Anyway, I hope it won't be buffed like every other weapon on the TS, considering it's OP as it is.
There's only one "good" news: considering the meta is shifting towards energy weapons, Brit Bots could become relevant again. Time to buy my second Lance!
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Post by Alpha on Dec 15, 2017 8:46:33 GMT -5
go go Brit Bots
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Post by RightOn on Dec 15, 2017 9:10:46 GMT -5
Bullets are back too. They're far cheaper to upgrade, and with the shield bonus plus the improved fire rate, they can make a Lance shieldless before it got inside 350M. Punishers in specific
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abarus39
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Post by abarus39 on Dec 15, 2017 9:28:23 GMT -5
Well the old equation in warship and tank design was balancing firepower, protection and speed. Pix had been doing a decent job with that up until the K-Bot release. Then you get bots with the most firepower and the most speed in the game who also happen to have great protection with the Bulg shield and Haechi Ancile. If they wanted to make bots with crazy firepower and ridiculous speed fine, but make them squishy as hades (like a carnage) when they are caught in the open and are able to be engaged. They didn't do that cause they were aiming for an OP bot, cramming all that firepower and speed and protection into these tiny framed robots... The Haechi looks so frail firing all three Orkans would prolly knock the robot on its arse.
You wont get in range to use your redeemer when half the reds have shocktrains though... what a great idea to hand them out for free... Its as if they are intentionally thinking of ways to make this game unplayable.
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Post by hon_shu on Dec 15, 2017 11:51:25 GMT -5
The thing I would add, paper panic aside, is that it's too bad content keeps getting rushed like this, while upgrade times and acquisition costs are higher than ever. Exactly this. Premature content released almost every month while players are struggling to keep up with the upgrades. Getting the stuff is one thing, but getting it to a reasonable level is the bigger problem.
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Post by hon_shu on Dec 15, 2017 11:54:06 GMT -5
Don't worry men, the Ember is even more powerful, it ignores all types of shields and has splash damage, so you can hit bots which are partially behind cover. Of course it has to be aimed, but overall I think it's slightly superior. The Redeemer is "balanced" if you look at its damage compared to Tarans (lol I admit it's funny to say), the problem is that every weapon deals too much damage in this game, and the Mk2 upgrades make things even worse. Anyway, I hope it won't be buffed like every other weapon on the TS, considering it's OP as it is. There's only one "good" news: considering the meta is shifting towards energy weapons, Brit Bots could become relevant again. Time to buy my second Lance! That's why there shouldn't be a light / medium / heavy version of each weapon IMO. Tarans and Orkans are the deadliest weapon in the game, why make a version of them that deals 50% more damage? Do we really need a heavy Gekko? Or maybe a heavy Shocktrain anyone?
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Dec 15, 2017 12:56:44 GMT -5
They have reduced its damage slightly on this weekend's test server, so we shall see how it goes.
For those saying the Ember is more powerful, you are wrong. I did the same experiment with the Ember when it was being tested - 5 Lancelot with Ember/Taran. The results were crazy, but not like this. I averaged about 850k using the Ember in the heavy slot, compared to 1.3million using the Redeemer.
You can't rely entirely on what the paper tells you - again, who wants the Vortex when it comes out?? Nobody. There are reasons for that, that we could divulge in all day. But the fact of the matter is, how it actually performs in practice. And it isn't even close.
The main differences are: the Ember has to be aimed. The Ember flames move pretty slow so they are avoidable. The main advantage was the pass through on any shield type, but the inaccuracy means not all shots will register damage. With the Redeemer, almost every bolt hits home.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 13:09:41 GMT -5
They have reduced its damage slightly on this weekend's test server, so we shall see how it goes. For those saying the Ember is more powerful, you are wrong. I did the same experiment with the Ember when it was being tested - 5 Lancelot with Ember/Taran. The results were crazy, but not like this. I averaged about 850k using the Ember in the heavy slot, compared to 1.3million using the Redeemer. You can't rely entirely on what the paper tells you - again, who wants the Vortex when it comes out?? Nobody. There are reasons for that, that we could divulge in all day. But the fact of the matter is, how it actually performs in practice. And it isn't even close. The main differences are: the Ember has to be aimed. The Ember flames move pretty slow so they are avoidable. The main advantage was the pass through on any shield type, but the inaccuracy means not all shots will register damage. With the Redeemer, almost every bolt hits home. When the Ember was in test, it was much less powerful than now. It received a big buff when it was released on the live server. I did the same test as you in the last TS where the Ember had the actual, real firepower, and it was better than the Redeemer for me. I had better results with it, altough I think that the Redeemer was OP too. On Adrian's channel you can find a video in which he compares an Ember Fury to a Redeemer Fury, 1 vs 1 at different ranges: the Ember build ALWAYS wins. Sure, it has to be aimed, but it's not difficult at all. I prefer the Ember.
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Dec 15, 2017 13:27:16 GMT -5
They have reduced its damage slightly on this weekend's test server, so we shall see how it goes. For those saying the Ember is more powerful, you are wrong. I did the same experiment with the Ember when it was being tested - 5 Lancelot with Ember/Taran. The results were crazy, but not like this. I averaged about 850k using the Ember in the heavy slot, compared to 1.3million using the Redeemer. You can't rely entirely on what the paper tells you - again, who wants the Vortex when it comes out?? Nobody. There are reasons for that, that we could divulge in all day. But the fact of the matter is, how it actually performs in practice. And it isn't even close. The main differences are: the Ember has to be aimed. The Ember flames move pretty slow so they are avoidable. The main advantage was the pass through on any shield type, but the inaccuracy means not all shots will register damage. With the Redeemer, almost every bolt hits home. When the Ember was in test, it was much less powerful than now. It received a big buff when it was released on the live server. I did the same test as you in the last TS where the Ember had the actual, real firepower, and it was better than the Redeemer for me. I had better results with it, altough I think that the Redeemer was OP too. On Adrian's channel you can find a video in which he compares an Ember Fury to a Redeemer Fury, 1 vs 1 at different ranges: the Ember build ALWAYS wins. Sure, it has to be aimed, but it's not difficult at all. I prefer the Ember. A test where the two biggest robots in the game are sitting still facing each other is about as useful as a dirty tampon. For one, the Fury isn't a good bot to use either weapon, as Fury's should never be within brawler range. And it also isn't a target you'd ever be likely to face on a regular basis. With moving targets and smaller targets, the Ember comes up short (it barely wins when both targets are the largest hit box in the game and stationary).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 13:33:47 GMT -5
When the Ember was in test, it was much less powerful than now. It received a big buff when it was released on the live server. I did the same test as you in the last TS where the Ember had the actual, real firepower, and it was better than the Redeemer for me. I had better results with it, altough I think that the Redeemer was OP too. On Adrian's channel you can find a video in which he compares an Ember Fury to a Redeemer Fury, 1 vs 1 at different ranges: the Ember build ALWAYS wins. Sure, it has to be aimed, but it's not difficult at all. I prefer the Ember. A test where the two biggest robots in the game are sitting still facing each other is about as useful as a dirty tampon. For one, the Fury isn't a good bot to use either weapon, as Fury's should never be within brawler range. And it also isn't a target you'd ever be likely to face on a regular basis. With moving targets and smaller targets, the Ember comes up short (it barely wins when both targets are the largest hit box in the game and stationary). The comparison was not made to show the real combat performance of these two weapons, but only to determine which one has more raw firepower. It's obvious. Regarding real effectiveness, as I said, I found the Ember to be more effective.
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Post by hon_shu on Dec 15, 2017 14:05:57 GMT -5
They have reduced its damage slightly on this weekend's test server, so we shall see how it goes. For those saying the Ember is more powerful, you are wrong. I did the same experiment with the Ember when it was being tested - 5 Lancelot with Ember/Taran. The results were crazy, but not like this. I averaged about 850k using the Ember in the heavy slot, compared to 1.3million using the Redeemer. You can't rely entirely on what the paper tells you - again, who wants the Vortex when it comes out?? Nobody. There are reasons for that, that we could divulge in all day. But the fact of the matter is, how it actually performs in practice. And it isn't even close. The main differences are: the Ember has to be aimed. The Ember flames move pretty slow so they are avoidable. The main advantage was the pass through on any shield type, but the inaccuracy means not all shots will register damage. With the Redeemer, almost every bolt hits home. That's just the ?poo-poo? they put themselves into because they constantly have to release new stuff. Storm doing comparable damage to Thunder because otherwise no one would pick it over an Orkan. Redeemer performing similar to Taran because Taran already deals more than enough damage. My take is most players were quite happy with having a Taran as a Medium and a Thunder as a heavy. Some bots could carry certain combinations of weapons, which made things interesting. Soon, every bot can carry any weapon. Boring.
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