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Post by T34 on Dec 10, 2017 20:38:22 GMT -5
The majority of your response doesn't offer any counter-points to mine, but still contains a number of good thoughts on the state of the game. The only thing I am disagreeing with is the shaming of whales. No intent to counter anything else. Sort of agreeing with your other points and presenting my opinions in that regard.
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Post by jhonsnow on Dec 10, 2017 22:29:32 GMT -5
And yet another thread for tanking like it will stop the tankers lol
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Post by cmdrperalta on Dec 10, 2017 22:36:26 GMT -5
And yet another thread for tanking like it will stop the tankers lol You know nothing, Jhon Snow. Actually, I don't really think that. It's just not something that one gets to say everyday.
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Post by bronzeknee on Dec 10, 2017 22:43:40 GMT -5
Don't hate the player. Hate the game. I know what you mean, Pix designed it that way, but...... My car does 160mph, if I choose to do that on the road I go prison, not the manufacturer. There are two things at play here, the designer and the player. You went ahead and compared to it situation with three things at play, the manufacturer, the driver and the law. The manufacturer doesn't write the rules of the road. But Pixonic both designed the game and the rules for it. Going 160mph (tanking) was designed in and is completely legal in the game, as the game allows it. You don't go to jail for it. You might argue that the law here is some kind of moral code or whatever, but it has no jurisdiction here as Russel points out below. The blame lies solely with Pixonic, don't blame players for doing what is in their best self interest. In fact, if you're not doing what is best for you in a game, you aren't playing your best, which means you are intentionally throwing. That's an absurd rationalization but 3) was kinda funny. So far official rules are: 1) Do not leave the battle. 2) Do not hack the game. Everything else is just a work of _SOME_ players imagination. Not the majority. Basically, it's just the wiki community who try to use "ethics" and "mutual fun" concept. Exactly. cmdrperalta and others think there should be rules against tanking, and that tanking is unfair. But there isn't rules against tanking in game, so tankers are in fact playing fairly.Which is why you need to hate the game and get it changed, don't hate the players for playing by the rules.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Dec 10, 2017 23:02:12 GMT -5
I know what you mean, Pix designed it that way, but...... My car does 160mph, if I choose to do that on the road I go prison, not the manufacturer. There are two things at play here, the designer and the player. You went ahead and compared to it situation with three things at play, the manufacturer, the driver and the law. The manufacturer doesn't write the rules of the road. But Pixonic both designed the game and the rules for it. Going 160mph (tanking) was designed in and is completely legal in the game, as the game allows it. You might argue that the law here is some kind of moral code or whatever, but it has no jurisdiction here as Russel points out below. The blame lies solely with Pixonic, don't blame players for doing what is in their best self interest. In fact, if you're not doing what is best for you in a game, you aren't playing your best, which means you are intentionally throwing. So far official rules are: 1) Do not leave the battle. 2) Do not hack the game. Everything else is just a work of _SOME_ players imagination. Not the majority. Basically, it's just the wiki community who try to use "ethics" and "mutual fun" concept. Exactly. cmdrperalta and others think there should be rules against tanking, and that tanking is unfair. But there isn't rules against tanking, so tankers are in fact playing fairly.Which is why you need to hate the game and get it changed, don't hate the players for playing by the rules. That's a false premise. I've never said that they should change the rules. What I have said is that pix has taken reasonable steps to address tanking through incentivizing stronger league play and significantly increasing the rewards for simply playing relative to the rewards for tanking and still ppl choose to tank, knowing that it screws up the balance of every single game they play in. Whatever else you want to say about that, it is clearly selfish behaviour and that whatever pixo's failings may be do not justify a player's bad conduct when it impacts the game for 11 other player. Every justifcation I have seen for it in this thread has either been that Pix has been ineffective at dealing with ppl gaming the rewards system or pointing out other similar ways that ppl game the rewards system. If you like to do it, that's your business, but I do not feel bad calling out exreme examples of it b/c I think it is completely lame behavior. I could care less whether you believe it will change anything.
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Post by Gdu4ever on Dec 10, 2017 23:02:19 GMT -5
... been playing the game for years. Obviously does not need to improve his hangar. Tanks anyway. There are forum members suggesting fixing reward increment will fix tanker problem automatically. I rejected this as a complete fix, and your post is an excellent illustration.
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Post by jhonsnow on Dec 10, 2017 23:03:46 GMT -5
And yet another thread for tanking like it will stop the tankers lol You know nothing, Jhon Snow. Actually, I don't really think that. It's just not something that one gets to say everyday. Don't worry I will go easy on you if you come against me ? Edit 1: I like the quote by the way ? Edit 2: And yes in the presence of all noobs and ethic lovers, I would like to announce the honorable pilot ABCDE the "Tanker of the year"
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Post by Gdu4ever on Dec 10, 2017 23:38:56 GMT -5
What I have said is that pix has taken reasonable steps to address tanking through incentivizing stronger league play and significantly increasing the rewards for simply playing relative to the rewards for tanking and still ppl choose to tank, knowing that it screws up the balance of every single game they play in. First thing first, I am rather pessimistic. What I believe is: The milking with big-whales is close to completion. Players in the middle layer (like me) have found their sweet spot / tanking methods so that they have no incentive to increase their power, i.e. reason to pay. Increasing reward is an attempt to promote competition, tempting non-maxed player to pay for moving up the ladder. The company, after being bought by Mail.ru, cares nothing but profits. The "reasonable steps to address tanking through incentivizing stronger league play" is a by-product, resolving the tanker problem is not the (primary) driver behind.
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Post by T34 on Dec 10, 2017 23:59:13 GMT -5
... been playing the game for years. Obviously does not need to improve his hangar. Tanks anyway. There are forum members suggesting fixing reward increment will fix tanker problem automatically. I rejected this as a complete fix, and your post is an excellent illustration. We know about the reward system now. Supply drops. Coming in 3.5 We need to see how this supply drop system works out at the end of the day. Silver and keys are sort of irrelevant. Silver drops are too small while benefit from the keys can easily be offset by readjusting the chest drop rate. Fast wins will provide additional keys and silver anyway. Perhaps three bot types are the only incentive for a clubber to start ascending. Other items just dilute the incentive. I mean is a clubber going to ascend if a storm or hover is on offer? But if a haechi is put on the table the clubber may indeed rise to diamond and in a month grab the haechi. And take note of the “battle rewards” element (3.6). Not sure how it works but seems like it rewards the player based on performance. Every criteria besides the squadding one would favour a clubber. IF I read it correctly in one match the unsquadded OP player could earn 21 amplify points. Heck s/he may randomly invite 5 other players into squad for that extre couple of points. In the graphic it takes 20 amplify points to go from private to bronze. Basically one game for an OP player. I think the main effect of this mechanism is going to encourage people to participate more and it will favour OP players who haven’t got all the gear and who haven’t maxed out that gear. But we really need to see the final release. No other incentive mechanism for a while.
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Post by zer00eyz on Dec 11, 2017 0:20:24 GMT -5
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Post by Gdu4ever on Dec 11, 2017 0:46:08 GMT -5
Guess I didnt present it well. I mean, the milking cycle of the big whales with the DIESS is close to completion. So they promote competition, to cash in a bit and impose more threat to big whales. And the Redeemer will be ready too. I think this kind of business cycle just never gets outdated, like: Release new smartphone > discounted price to those who waited > release new smartphone > ...
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Post by bronzeknee on Dec 11, 2017 1:06:44 GMT -5
There are two things at play here, the designer and the player. You went ahead and compared to it situation with three things at play, the manufacturer, the driver and the law. The manufacturer doesn't write the rules of the road. But Pixonic both designed the game and the rules for it. Going 160mph (tanking) was designed in and is completely legal in the game, as the game allows it. You might argue that the law here is some kind of moral code or whatever, but it has no jurisdiction here as Russel points out below. The blame lies solely with Pixonic, don't blame players for doing what is in their best self interest. In fact, if you're not doing what is best for you in a game, you aren't playing your best, which means you are intentionally throwing. Exactly. cmdrperalta and others think there should be rules against tanking, and that tanking is unfair. But there isn't rules against tanking, so tankers are in fact playing fairly.Which is why you need to hate the game and get it changed, don't hate the players for playing by the rules. That's a false premise. I've never said that they should change the rules. What I have said is that pix has taken reasonable steps to address tanking through incentivizing stronger league play and significantly increasing the rewards for simply playing relative to the rewards for tanking and still ppl choose to tank, knowing that it screws up the balance of every single game they play in. Whatever else you want to say about that, it is clearly selfish behaviour and that whatever pixo's failings may be do not justify a player's bad conduct when it impacts the game for 11 other player. Every justifcation I have seen for it in this thread has either been that Pix has been ineffective at dealing with ppl gaming the rewards system or pointing out other similar ways that ppl game the rewards system. If you like to do it, that's your business, but I do not feel bad calling out exreme examples of it b/c I think it is completely lame behavior. I could care less whether you believe it will change anything. I didn't say you said, I said you thought. Clearly, you don't think tanking should be allowed. So via the transitive property, you think there should be some rule and punishment for tanking...but I don't even need to infer this as you are literally shaming those people with this thread... you are trying to punish them because they are breaking your rule. But you're a Pixonic apologist if you state that they have taken reasonable steps to address the problem, then continue to complain about the problem. The definition of reasonable "as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate" defies what you've said. Clearly you don't feel the new system is appropriate or fair because people are still tanking, hence why you are here shaming people. Trying to absolve Pixonic of responsibility defies the definition of reasonable and basic logic. This is Pixonic's game, they have full control over it. So either they are being reasonable and the new system is appropriate and fair to you, or it isn't. Clearly, it isn't because you created this thread, so let's put the blame where it lies: Pixonic. But I remember you've struggled with definitions before though in the pay to win thread, my guess is English isn't your first language. And talking about balance in a pay to win game doesn't make sense. People who pay massive bucks for an advantage destroy balance just as much as tankers. Both are legal in the game, despite the fact both destroy game balance... in fact that is a good analogy. Imagine if I created a thread railing against the whales who paid for an advantage. Would you blame the whales or Pixonic? In the end, the problem isn't the player, it is the fact what they are doing is allowed by the game. The same can be said about unfair tax breaks for certain groups. I wouldn't blame those people for taking advantage of them, I would blame the government for providing them. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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Post by Gdu4ever on Dec 11, 2017 1:32:53 GMT -5
Put it this way:
There is a game with a bug known for 1 year and a lot of players abused it. The developer didnt fix it and should be blamed, no doubt. How about the players who took advantage of the bug?
I decided not to conclude here though, because only the developer can fix the bug in this case. The debate on the ethics of the player, sadly, will not help to solve the problem. (The 6-pack maybe the best solution from the players side, War Robots speaking)
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Post by cmdrperalta on Dec 11, 2017 1:36:37 GMT -5
That's a false premise. I've never said that they should change the rules. What I have said is that pix has taken reasonable steps to address tanking through incentivizing stronger league play and significantly increasing the rewards for simply playing relative to the rewards for tanking and still ppl choose to tank, knowing that it screws up the balance of every single game they play in. Whatever else you want to say about that, it is clearly selfish behaviour and that whatever pixo's failings may be do not justify a player's bad conduct when it impacts the game for 11 other player. Every justifcation I have seen for it in this thread has either been that Pix has been ineffective at dealing with ppl gaming the rewards system or pointing out other similar ways that ppl game the rewards system. If you like to do it, that's your business, but I do not feel bad calling out exreme examples of it b/c I think it is completely lame behavior. I could care less whether you believe it will change anything. I didn't say you said, I said you thought. Clearly, you don't think tanking should be allowed. So via the transitive property, you think there should be some rule and punishment for tanking...but I don't even need to infer this as you are literally shaming those people with this thread... you are trying to punish them because they are breaking your rule. Well, there we are again with the false premise. And this one coupled with psychic powers. Kudos. Your appear to be confusing 'logic' with 'logical fallacy'. In this case, a strawman. You are the person talking about changing rules. All I've said is that I disagree with the conduct and plan to make a point of calling attention to it when I see egregious cases. I also think it's a childish rationalization you are making to justify screwing up games for 11 other people because of whatever selfish motivation you may have for tanking. I can totally understand why you would want to externalize the blame to pixo, society or anyone else you can in that kind of situation. I do think they have taken reasonable steps to address the issue to encourage voluntary cooperation and reduce the marginal benefit of tanking, but at the end of the day, the ppl you are defending, like the subject of this post, will go to great lengths to game a system for a few pennies in reward. It's really actually kinda pathetic if you think of it in that light.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 1:36:57 GMT -5
The funny part of this. They guy has an Asian character in his name, implying that he's Asian. So shaming him on an English language board is going to do what? Shame him without his knowing?
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Post by Russel on Dec 11, 2017 2:09:48 GMT -5
Thanks. It was not a "rationalization", though. And the logic is simple. Prior to leagues it was not possible to sealclub to such an extent. Then Pix made it possible. Then Pix ignored most of the "reporting" and "whining", and still have NOT posted ANY message about sealclubbing. Then Pix introduced Cashbots and Mk2 stuff so you might sealclub even in Champs league. Then they disallowed people to leave matches where they are being sealclubbed (LPQ with no rewards). So far official rules are: 1) Do not leave the battle. 2) Do not hack the game. Everything else is just a work of _SOME_ players imagination. Not the majority. Basically, it's just the wiki community who try to use "ethics" and "mutual fun" concept. Very well said Russel. If I may add; - There were more changes implement that aided tanking/clubbing during the recent past like the changing of the points system something like three times to make dropping leagues easier. Remember the full squad drops/tanks? I haven’t seen one in ages. So easy now that no one bothers to organise up for tanking groups. - You forgot about the multi hanger initiative ;-) that’s a big one. - “Then they disallowed people to leave matches where they are being sealclubbed (LPQ with no rewards).” This is BRILLIANT!!!! I have never thought of the threat of the LQ in this way. And you know what…… if they can rig every gambling mechanism they can surely design a system to stop people from leaving a match when they are being clubbed. Lets face it. Pro tankers, clubbers do not get caught up in the LQ. So it can only be for the noobs. And when will a noob eject? Mostly when they are being thrashed. Its not the map skipping- “Everything else is just a work of _SOME_ players imagination. Not the majority. Basically, it's just the wiki community who try to use "ethics" and "mutual fun" concept.” SPOT ON!Ah yes. Hangars, now for faster 1-bot tanking, true that. Now people do not need to even lose time by ditching five bots. And yes, my point on LPQ is exactly that you there only if you are relatively new to the game. By the time you reach at least level9 of your hangar you know the rules and would not get there. In addition to that - just how easy it would be to limit Mk2 to Expert the lowest? But no, majority of players are in Silver-Gold (insiders info from Pix), with majority of weapons at 6-8 (again, official Pix info), so they allowed Mk2 to lower leagues to promote upgrade spendings. And I do not promote sealclubbing, (I promote playing in lower leagues with fun bots though), but let’s not be the fools and think there are “some sealclubbers”. It is a sealclubbers/whales game now, and we can either ignore it, or accept it and learn to live it
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Post by Russel on Dec 11, 2017 2:19:41 GMT -5
The funny part of this. They guy has an Asian character in his name, implying that he's Asian. So shaming him on an English language board is going to do what? Shame him without his knowing? While I totally agree with your point... do you think shaming him in his native language will change anything? :)
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Post by tekkamanblade on Dec 11, 2017 3:56:08 GMT -5
... been playing the game for years. Obviously does not need to improve his hangar. Tanks anyway. He's a bad pilot, too. I very nearly killed his shocktrain bulg with a lvl 9 gareth. We should have won this game. I can't stand players like that. Yeah, I can't stand this player too! How can he be at diamond with such a hanger? He should be in silver league if he does his job better, a lazy tanker. Why do you use Molot Cossack to tank? You can't even reach enemy when spawn... either use a Orkan Kumiho, meet unload and ditch or use a Gekko Geppy, flash and ditch. His tanking skill is poor. Jokes aside, I hate maxed player tank too, there is no point in doing that, only reason is to bully people. Well, I'm a event tank myself and I am very proud of doing that because it is simply a game strategy in order to get big prize with limited time of playing. I'm pretty sure that a person with a normal life is impossible to reach that Bulga if he does not tank at all. Pix arrange whales to kick your bumbum at certain point, and I try to avoid that and find a place that I can kick someone elses bumbum, that's the entire point of installing a competitive game and continue playing it.
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Post by Koalabear on Dec 11, 2017 8:31:35 GMT -5
... been playing the game for years. Obviously does not need to improve his hangar. Tanks anyway. He's a bad pilot, too. I very nearly killed his shocktrain bulg with a lvl 9 gareth. We should have won this game. I can't stand players like that. I kind of feel bad for this guy. How sucky must his life be in real life? And now that he's double maxed out all his stuff, what's left to strive for in the game for him?
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