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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 21:25:29 GMT -5
People might as well give up hoping for any 'hangar balance'. Now that we can have multiple hangars, that we select after we see which map, it's impossible to do MM by hangar strength. The final nail in the coffin for any hopes of the MM being reasonable. Hey, are you the first to have mentioned this? Excellent point, my friend. Insightful. No idea, I don't think I read it anywhere else. |
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Post by +DethHilt+ on Dec 5, 2017 21:37:08 GMT -5
There is no such thing as OP bots, just UP pilots
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Post by damian002 on Dec 5, 2017 23:19:31 GMT -5
Ok is this a question of whether or not dash bots are OP or whether pix is pay to win or free to play? In a free to play pix, Haechi is OP. In a pay to win game the haechi is not OP at all. War robots is pay to win and haechi is not OP for the price tag. In fact for $300 I believe it's a bit underpowered. For $300 i would want to destroy 3 to 4 hangers of maxed out free bots with my one haechi. Here is the real OP bot. Griffin. Silver bot able to rival the best bots in the game. Seems to me people are mad that their free silver bots are finding it a bit more difficult to hang in elite leagues. Silver bots shouldn't be in elite leagues. Say it with me..."Elite League"!!! If I were a pay to win guy that would upset me a bit seeing a free bot hang with my paid for bots. I'm not a pay to win guy nor do I own any dash bots. They do look fun though. The real problem isn't dash bots or anything else. Problem is the MM. Fix that and make it fun for all and problem solved. Dude, you pretty much said what I wanted to say. Haechi has to have some kind of advantage since you paid for it. Yet still, you can actually earn 1 without paying a dime. Tho its gonna take diligence and patience. |
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Post by The VVatcher on Dec 5, 2017 23:43:13 GMT -5
Ok is this a question of whether or not dash bots are OP or whether pix is pay to win or free to play? In a free to play pix, Haechi is OP. In a pay to win game the haechi is not OP at all. War robots is pay to win and haechi is not OP for the price tag. In fact for $300 I believe it's a bit underpowered. For $300 i would want to destroy 3 to 4 hangers of maxed out free bots with my one haechi. Here is the real OP bot. Griffin. Silver bot able to rival the best bots in the game. Seems to me people are mad that their free silver bots are finding it a bit more difficult to hang in elite leagues. Silver bots shouldn't be in elite leagues. Say it with me..."Elite League"!!! If I were a pay to win guy that would upset me a bit seeing a free bot hang with my paid for bots. I'm not a pay to win guy nor do I own any dash bots. They do look fun though. The real problem isn't dash bots or anything else. Problem is the MM. Fix that and make it fun for all and problem solved. Dude, you pretty much said what I wanted to say. Haechi has to have some kind of advantage since you paid for it. Yet still, you can actually earn 1 without paying a dime. Tho its gonna take diligence and patience. “Some kind of advantage.” But not every advantage. It’s durable, has heavyweight firepower, and very mobile. It’s all the advantages of the weight classes rolled into one. Anyway, I got mine for $10 and my 2nd one for nothing. By the money logic, mine should be weaker than those that paid $450 for 2. |
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Post by moody on Dec 5, 2017 23:43:47 GMT -5
Here is a question. Would the dash double dash still be over powered if there was a 'much' longer cooldown on it? e.g.17-20 seconds or so. That would be enough time for bots to catch up to it and kill it if it wasn't careful - yet it could still save up and do incredible manouvers, just way less frequently.
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Post by rollinfknpower on Dec 6, 2017 0:14:51 GMT -5
Should high school football players be able to compete against NFL players? No. The robot is fine the way it is. With that said, it should not be able to venture below the elite tiers of gameplay. That is the problem, not the bot.
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Post by danny on Dec 6, 2017 0:27:28 GMT -5
Should high school football players be able to compete against NFL players? No. The robot is fine the way it is. With that said, it should not be able to venture below the elite tiers of gameplay. That is the problem, not the bot. That would cause a serious problem though. What if a lower league player wants to buy CashBots? After the purchase, automatically move him up? Nobody in his right mind would make the purchase then. Or limit sale of these bots to only high league players? Pixonic screams NO!!! |
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Post by rollinfknpower on Dec 6, 2017 1:06:30 GMT -5
The simple problem went so long unaddressed that it has now snowballed into a disaster. Really the MM is unfixable now. It's a total lose lose.Choices are, leave it the way it is and continue to have the majority of players which pix needs for the game to survive upset, or nerf the bots down to near equal standing with the rest and have all of the spenders which pix needs for the game to survive upset. Third option is to drop price to make them available to all. This might be the worst thing to do. Spenders unhappy that they spent on a now cheap bot, ftp players mad that now everyone has a full hanger of dash bots and everything not dash is in a museum next to T rex chucking all diversity in the game straight out the window. What to do? Best option really in my opinion is to leave it alone and hope the air drops work to fix the MM. Maybe nerf the haechi a bit more. Not too much. Longer cool down for dash I think would go a long long ways.
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Post by The VVatcher on Dec 6, 2017 1:38:16 GMT -5
The simple problem went so long unaddressed that it has now snowballed into a disaster. Really the MM is unfixable now. It's a total lose lose.Choices are, leave it the way it is and continue to have the majority of players which pix needs for the game to survive upset, or nerf the bots down to near equal standing with the rest and have all of the spenders which pix needs for the game to survive upset. Third option is to drop price to make them available to all. This might be the worst thing to do. Spenders unhappy that they spent on a now cheap bot, ftp players mad that now everyone has a full hanger of dash bots and everything not dash is in a museum next to T rex chucking all diversity in the game straight out the window. What to do? Best option really in my opinion is to leave it alone and hope the air drops work to fix the MM. Maybe nerf the haechi a bit more. Not too much. Longer cool down for dash I think would go a long long ways. I agree with this. They really messed up. Even a longer cool down would piss people off. Not too long ago, a poster here was agitated because he thought they were nerfing the speed to 42 kph, instead of the 43. |
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Post by noobcake on Dec 6, 2017 2:34:37 GMT -5
Should high school football players be able to compete against NFL players? No. The robot is fine the way it is. With that said, it should not be able to venture below the elite tiers of gameplay. That is the problem, not the bot. That would cause a serious problem though. What if a lower league player wants to buy CashBots? After the purchase, automatically move him up? Nobody in his right mind would make the purchase then. Or limit sale of these bots to only high league players? Pixonic screams NO!!! That used to happen all the time with old tier system. You would buy a heavy bot or upgrade your weapon to level 7 and BOOM you were suddenly getting spawn 「grape」 by 4/12 gepards. No warning at all. |
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Post by danny on Dec 6, 2017 2:59:30 GMT -5
That would cause a serious problem though. What if a lower league player wants to buy CashBots? After the purchase, automatically move him up? Nobody in his right mind would make the purchase then. Or limit sale of these bots to only high league players? Pixonic screams NO!!! That used to happen all the time with old tier system. You would buy a heavy bot or upgrade your weapon to level 7 and BOOM you were suddenly getting spawn ?grape? by 4/12 gepards. No warning at all. I wasn't playing this game yet then but what you described sounds pretty nightmarish. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 3:14:25 GMT -5
People might as well give up hoping for any 'hangar balance'. Now that we can have multiple hangars, that we select after we see which map, it's impossible to do MM by hangar strength. The final nail in the coffin for any hopes of the MM being reasonable. Where is the problem? There's no difference, just consider the best hangar for the MM. With the previous MM you had to have a balanced hangar because only the best bot and weapons were used to determine the strenght of your opponents, and the same can be applied to hangar decks. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 3:32:31 GMT -5
That would cause a serious problem though. What if a lower league player wants to buy CashBots? After the purchase, automatically move him up? Nobody in his right mind would make the purchase then. Or limit sale of these bots to only high league players? Pixonic screams NO!!! That used to happen all the time with old tier system. You would buy a heavy bot or upgrade your weapon to level 7 and BOOM you were suddenly getting spawn ?grape? by 4/12 gepards. No warning at all. There were two main issues: first, the Gepard didn't have a MM penalty despite being better than every other bot available at early stages of the game; second, the MM gave too low weight to weapon levels. These two were the reasons why everyone could run five 4/12 Magnum Gepards and wreck noobs everyday...but as soon as you went up in tiers, battles were pretty good. Pixonic could have introduced some simple tweaks to eliminate seal clubbers, but they didn't because the old MM system didn't incentivate players to spend real money to improve their hangar. For example, I used to run four 5/7 mediums to stay in silver tier, and I didn't start to upgrade more until the League System came out: I just liked where I was, like many players, but this is not convenient in terms of income for Pixonic. |
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Post by noobcake on Dec 7, 2017 0:54:54 GMT -5
That used to happen all the time with old tier system. You would buy a heavy bot or upgrade your weapon to level 7 and BOOM you were suddenly getting spawn ?grape? by 4/12 gepards. No warning at all. I wasn't playing this game yet then but what you described sounds pretty nightmarish. It was bad for new players and, as @dreamweaver said, it was bad for pixonic as well since there was no hurry to level up. That being said, forum dwellers and wiki readers did fairly well. Thanks to data driven folks like Tintehfiend, we were able to explore the maximum bot and weapon levels one could have before being launched into the next tier. It was exciting times on the wiki page. I personally enjoyed mastering one tier while preparing for the next. Entering a new tier would expose you to different bot types, maps, and strategies. Preparing pre-leveled bots and weapons allowed you to enter a new tier and fall in love with the game again. Granted, seal clubbing gepards were a problem in the high bronze / low silver tiers and I’m told the gold tier was a rhino fest. That being said, non-wiki/forum players are probably better off despite all the griping on the forums about the league system. |
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Post by T34 on Dec 7, 2017 1:00:18 GMT -5
I dont think there is enough uproar for Pix to nerf it again. Its the uproar that counts and not the OPness of the bot.
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Post by iamgoot on Dec 7, 2017 2:21:46 GMT -5
I have a Haechi and a bulgasari and in many situations they are OP however if a PDB griffin Strolls round I'm fecked unless I can get to cover as my shield is useless and if he jumps it's hard to track with Orkans to do any damage. Plus the dashes don't make you travel far. You become a magnet for fire from everyone and unless you have 12/12/12/12 alot can kill you. Ie a tarancilot at level 11/12 has kicked my add so many times because my volley can't kill it in one even though they are 10/11/10. So whilst they appear OP they can be killed easily as dashing into "cover" often leaves you exposed. The only cover that doesn't is at your back but it's useless being at the back of the map if your range is 300
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Post by NokiaSåmsung on Dec 7, 2017 2:27:01 GMT -5
Haechi is not so OP when it is facing another Haechi?
Haechi is not OP at all when you are facing another Haechi with a lot better piloting skill?
Dont have a Haechi?
Go for you wallet and get one.?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 3:43:02 GMT -5
That used to happen all the time with old tier system. You would buy a heavy bot or upgrade your weapon to level 7 and BOOM you were suddenly getting spawn ?grape? by 4/12 gepards. No warning at all. I wasn't playing this game yet then but what you described sounds pretty nightmarish. High bronze/Low silver tier was amazing... Rogs, vitayz, golems, geps, and boas, oh sweet boa. Any silver heavies were base level, very few britts or exotic bots... The seal clubbers were just below silver tier, so the gameplay was diverse and so fun! |
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Post by danny on Dec 7, 2017 3:46:41 GMT -5
I wasn't playing this game yet then but what you described sounds pretty nightmarish. High bronze/Low silver tier was amazing... Rogs, vitayz, golems, geps, and boas, oh sweet boa. Any silver heavies were base level, very few britts or exotic bots... The seal clubbers we're just below silver tier, so the gameplay was diverse and do fun! Your tier was based on your hangar, not what you owned? So you could play in separate tiers. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 3:58:40 GMT -5
High bronze/Low silver tier was amazing... Rogs, vitayz, golems, geps, and boas, oh sweet boa. Any silver heavies were base level, very few britts or exotic bots... The seal clubbers we're just below silver tier, so the gameplay was diverse and do fun! Your tier was based on your hangar, not what you owned? So you could play in separate tiers. Yes, it was based on what you had in your active hangar, no matter if you had tons of maxed bots and weapons you didn't use. |
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Post by danny on Dec 7, 2017 5:37:25 GMT -5
I have a Haechi and a bulgasari and in many situations they are OP however if a PDB griffin Strolls round I'm fecked unless I can get to cover as my shield is useless and if he jumps it's hard to track with Orkans to do any damage. Plus the dashes don't make you travel far. You become a magnet for fire from everyone and unless you have 12/12/12/12 alot can kill you. Ie a tarancilot at level 11/12 has kicked my add so many times because my volley can't kill it in one even though they are 10/11/10. So whilst they appear OP they can be killed easily as dashing into "cover" often leaves you exposed. The only cover that doesn't is at your back but it's useless being at the back of the map if your range is 300 I'm not sure you realize it but you have just said something that is forbidden in this forum. This forum does not tolerate anyone saying anything that goes against the officially held position. But what is the official position, you ask. It's the collective belief of 95% of the forumites. Anytime a certain belief is held by 95% or more of the forumites, it gets stamped as being the official position and this belief will be rigorously defended and actively propagated in order that it might reach 100% consensus. Anyone who vocalizes anything that runs contrary to the official position will be persecuted mercilessly. There is a secret cadre of forumites called Inquisitors (no, not the bot) who will hunt you down and relentlessly break your self-esteem by making you question your intelligence, your humanity and even your school. These Inquisitors will not argue against the points you raised with facts, after all they have little grasp of the facts themselves; they just want you to toe the official party line. But they are trained specifically to undermine your self-confidence and your identity as an individual. So I urge you to repent, confess your sins and adopt the official position that the Haechi is inarguably OP and is only used by ppl who possess no game skills and can only make up for that lack by opening their wallets. Got it? Good. Now let's hope none of the Inquisitors have yet detected your scent. Just to be sure, go dip yourself in the river 3 times. |
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Post by iamgoot on Dec 7, 2017 9:05:08 GMT -5
I have a Haechi and a bulgasari and in many situations they are OP however if a PDB griffin Strolls round I'm fecked unless I can get to cover as my shield is useless and if he jumps it's hard to track with Orkans to do any damage. Plus the dashes don't make you travel far. You become a magnet for fire from everyone and unless you have 12/12/12/12 alot can kill you. Ie a tarancilot at level 11/12 has kicked my add so many times because my volley can't kill it in one even though they are 10/11/10. So whilst they appear OP they can be killed easily as dashing into "cover" often leaves you exposed. The only cover that doesn't is at your back but it's useless being at the back of the map if your range is 300 I'm not sure you realize it but you have just said something that is forbidden in this forum. This forum does not tolerate anyone saying anything that goes against the official position held. But what is the official position, you ask. It's the collective belief of 95% of the forumites. Anytime a certain belief is held by 95% or more of the forumites, it gets stamped as being the official position and this belief will be rigorously defended and actively propagated in order that it might reach 100% consensus. Anyone who vocalizes anything that runs contrary to the official position will be persecuted mercilessly. There is a secret cadre of forumites called Inquisitors (no, not the bot) who will hunt you down and relentlessly break your self-esteem by making you question your intelligence, your humanity and even your school. These Inquisitors will not argue against the points you raised with facts, after all they have little grasp of the facts themselves; they just want you to toe the official party line. But they are trained specifically to undermine your self-confidence and your identity as an individual. So I urge you to repent, confess your sins and adopt the official position that the Haechi is inarguably OP and is only used by ppl who possess no game skills and can only make up for that lack by opening their wallets. Got it? Good. Now let's hope none of the Inquisitors have yet detected your scent. Just to be sure, go dip yourself in the river 3 times. Lol all I will say is that my Haechi has gone down more times than a Thai 「strong independent woman who don't need no man」. |
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Post by moody on Dec 7, 2017 14:45:48 GMT -5
High bronze/Low silver tier was amazing... Rogs, vitayz, golems, geps, and boas, oh sweet boa. Any silver heavies were base level, very few britts or exotic bots... The seal clubbers we're just below silver tier, so the gameplay was diverse and do fun! Your tier was based on your hangar, not what you owned? So you could play in separate tiers. Yes. The uproar when the new system came in and we all got the shaft because 3 out of our 4 hangar options could no longer be used. There was a weekend maybe a month after the new tiers started when the system crashed and went back to the old system - and we all really enjoyed playing for that weekend. |
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Post by hon_shu on Dec 7, 2017 17:41:24 GMT -5
I have a Haechi and a bulgasari and in many situations they are OP however if a PDB griffin Strolls round I'm fecked unless I can get to cover as my shield is useless and if he jumps it's hard to track with Orkans to do any damage. Plus the dashes don't make you travel far. You become a magnet for fire from everyone and unless you have 12/12/12/12 alot can kill you. Ie a tarancilot at level 11/12 has kicked my add so many times because my volley can't kill it in one even though they are 10/11/10. So whilst they appear OP they can be killed easily as dashing into "cover" often leaves you exposed. The only cover that doesn't is at your back but it's useless being at the back of the map if your range is 300 I'm not sure you realize it but you have just said something that is forbidden in this forum. This forum does not tolerate anyone saying anything that goes against the officially held position. But what is the official position, you ask. It's the collective belief of 95% of the forumites. Anytime a certain belief is held by 95% or more of the forumites, it gets stamped as being the official position and this belief will be rigorously defended and actively propagated in order that it might reach 100% consensus. Anyone who vocalizes anything that runs contrary to the official position will be persecuted mercilessly. There is a secret cadre of forumites called Inquisitors (no, not the bot) who will hunt you down and relentlessly break your self-esteem by making you question your intelligence, your humanity and even your school. These Inquisitors will not argue against the points you raised with facts, after all they have little grasp of the facts themselves; they just want you to toe the official party line. But they are trained specifically to undermine your self-confidence and your identity as an individual. So I urge you to repent, confess your sins and adopt the official position that the Haechi is inarguably OP and is only used by ppl who possess no game skills and can only make up for that lack by opening their wallets. Got it? Good. Now let's hope none of the Inquisitors have yet detected your scent. Just to be sure, go dip yourself in the river 3 times. Nope. Even from the brief description I don't believe Danny is a very good or experienced enough Haechi pilot. So how can sub-par piloting be an argument for the bot not being overpowered? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 18:28:22 GMT -5
I have a Haechi and a bulgasari and in many situations they are OP however if a PDB griffin Strolls round I'm fecked unless I can get to cover as my shield is useless and if he jumps it's hard to track with Orkans to do any damage. Plus the dashes don't make you travel far. You become a magnet for fire from everyone and unless you have 12/12/12/12 alot can kill you. Ie a tarancilot at level 11/12 has kicked my add so many times because my volley can't kill it in one even though they are 10/11/10. So whilst they appear OP they can be killed easily as dashing into "cover" often leaves you exposed. The only cover that doesn't is at your back but it's useless being at the back of the map if your range is 300 I'm not sure you realize it but you have just said something that is forbidden in this forum. This forum does not tolerate anyone saying anything that goes against the officially held position. But what is the official position, you ask. It's the collective belief of 95% of the forumites. Anytime a certain belief is held by 95% or more of the forumites, it gets stamped as being the official position and this belief will be rigorously defended and actively propagated in order that it might reach 100% consensus. Anyone who vocalizes anything that runs contrary to the official position will be persecuted mercilessly. There is a secret cadre of forumites called Inquisitors (no, not the bot) who will hunt you down and relentlessly break your self-esteem by making you question your intelligence, your humanity and even your school. These Inquisitors will not argue against the points you raised with facts, after all they have little grasp of the facts themselves; they just want you to toe the official party line. But they are trained specifically to undermine your self-confidence and your identity as an individual. So I urge you to repent, confess your sins and adopt the official position that the Haechi is inarguably OP and is only used by ppl who possess no game skills and can only make up for that lack by opening their wallets. Got it? Good. Now let's hope none of the Inquisitors have yet detected your scent. Just to be sure, go dip yourself in the river 3 times. Danny, this is the internet, u need thicker skin. This isn’t about dogmatism. What it is about is experience. And humility to accept that if you disagree with someone much more experienced on a given subject than you, you are statistically much more likely to be wrong than right. I have no idea what you do for a living, but I’m certain that whatever that is, you know much more about that subject than me, even if I may have dabbled in it. Also, the straw man argument you use that Haechi is only used by people without game skills is bs. The vast majority of the very best players currently in game run 3-5 Haechis. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 18:31:50 GMT -5
Back on subject, I’ll encourage anyone unsure of whether the Haechi is OP or not, to take a look at the progression in the stats I showed in this post |
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Post by Replicant on Dec 7, 2017 18:45:56 GMT -5
Dash in, unload, dash out. That's why it is way OP and I guess they won't take one of the two dash charges away. Aside from the dashers, every other bot in the game only has two choices: engage or retreat. Dashers can do both, at once. Agreed. The only way they could balance Haechi is by removing one dash charge. Any other stat adjustment would have to be crippling. |
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Post by Replicant on Dec 7, 2017 19:03:11 GMT -5
Here is a question. Would the dash double dash still be over powered if there was a 'much' longer cooldown on it? e.g.17-20 seconds or so. That would be enough time for bots to catch up to it and kill it if it wasn't careful - yet it could still save up and do incredible manouvers, just way less frequently. How often can a Haechi gain a firing solution? Right now the CD is well insided the 27ish cycle time for an Orkan. The limit on a Haechi's force projection is the Orkan's CD, so the extra up-time on Dash can be used for mobility or defense. In order to meaningfully effect the Haechi's over-all balance, the Dash CD would need to be long enough to force its pilot to choose between Force Projection and Defense rather than getting both. As a first guess, I think they'd need to double the CD to 24 seconds or remove a charge on Dash. |
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Post by moody on Dec 7, 2017 19:10:45 GMT -5
Here is a question. Would the dash double dash still be over powered if there was a 'much' longer cooldown on it? e.g.17-20 seconds or so. That would be enough time for bots to catch up to it and kill it if it wasn't careful - yet it could still save up and do incredible manouvers, just way less frequently. How often can a Haechi gain a firing solution? Right now the CD is well insided the 27ish cycle time for an Orkan. The limit on a Haechi's force projection is the Orkan's CD, so the extra up-time on Dash can be used for mobility or defense. In order to meaningfully effect the Haechi's over-all balance, the Dash CD would need to be long enough to force its pilot to choose between Force Projection and Defense rather than getting both. As a first guess, I think they'd need to double the CD to 24 seconds or remove a charge on Dash. I don't think the orkan is always a limiting factor. I tend to still have some orkan charge after destroying something with haechi. It's the second target that it tends to start just dribbling out. But yes, I agree with you - long enough so that even after a double dash (attack, defence) the pilot has to be careful to keep out of harms way as others could catch up and kill. |
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Post by rollinfknpower on Dec 7, 2017 19:33:53 GMT -5
I personally can't comment 100% for certain on how the heachi truly performs as I don't own one. I've faced a ton and yes, in the hands of a good pilot nothing in my hanger competes. I've killed plenty that were piloted by shaky commanders and perhaps a few with good pilots but usually this is with help.
Having never piloted one I can't tell from the other standpoint just how good they are. Only plasma I run is a tarancilot and that is probably my most effective bot against haechis. Distance and cover seems to be the key when fighting them. Of course you will never outmaneuver one but at least it gives a bit more of a fighting chance.
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