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Post by joshfishyu on Nov 21, 2017 14:47:22 GMT -5
Knife fighters hate artillery yet whenever I go to kill them the bloody red knife fighters protect them. GRRRRR Had a red pumping out Mk 2 hydras and spirals ?illegitimate child? killed 4 of my bots I would have killed him but a knife fighter intervened. I'd have let me kill the sod and then killed him. Must be Mr. Solo... I hate that player...
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Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Nov 21, 2017 14:48:40 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts... If blue is ahead drop any bot you want. If we are behind on beacons or the beacon bar, drop something that can cap a beacon and go get at least 1. If blue is behind and you drop a bot that is going to cost blue the game, I give up right there. I can't just leave without risking being placed in the LPQ. So I'll occupy my time by pushing them over an edge, shooting them, blocking their shoots, whatever I can to make them as miserable as they are making me. The point of the game is to capture beacons to win the game. Not to sit in the back throwing popcorn watching your team lose. It's more about map control than beacon count (unless you're down 4-1 for an extended period). I've seen many games lost because a 2-3 deficit creates a sense of urgency that makes people waste their bots. If you control the map properly, you will eventually overtake the beacons (without wasting anything trying to force a capture). Basically, that sense of urgency should only kick in when you're down 4-1 or down one late in the game. Aside from that, patience and map control is key. I know you know that, because I know you're a great player. Just wanted to point out for those that may have taken what you said literally about everything being about capturing beacons.
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Post by DarkVagabond on Nov 21, 2017 15:23:49 GMT -5
This is exactly right. Worse still, the persons who face the brunt of the downside are those trying to fight for territory at a disadvantage. That means that the camping player may not even realize how much they're harming the team until it is too late. tell that to those who rain down punishment on the center beacon on yama with artillery... The defeat screen tells them all they need to know - that they should have chosen something that can actually flick the centre beacon, not just throw giant turds at it. He who has ears, let him hear.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 15:59:22 GMT -5
I have had similar experiences when i run a turkeyshoot natasha. One thing I find is that against old school bots if you slap a tempest on a Zenit-Noricum and are willing to move around instead of camp, you can really do a lot of damage on any of the maps. Also, that build can actually defend itself when bots charge. Finally, the reason red is charging is that they are getting shredded. It's a totally advantageous position for knife fighters, esp. if the turkeyshoot has high ground and something like a tempest that can shred bots as they approach.
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Post by vin5240 on Nov 21, 2017 16:05:52 GMT -5
All they do is make enemies move. You can easily dodge them by moving forward and back unless you are in a slow bot at 300-350m then the noricums will hit.So even if you are behind cover, just move back and you will dodge them lol. Zenits are too slow, the noricum might get you though. I got hit by max noricum patton and it felt like getting hit with tridents.
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rdood
Destrier
Posts: 115
Karma: 69
Pilot name: °•°••°•°
Platform: Android
League: Expert
Favorite robot: Kumiho
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Post by rdood on Nov 21, 2017 16:11:20 GMT -5
Everytime i see that build i leave, just on the basis that ive lost more games because of that one guy running it Useful with good pilots but 90% of the time you dont find the "good" players The guy pushing you off in yama was probably doing you a favor, the closer you are to centre the better you can defend it or attack it Zenit/noricum nattys are usually a sign your team will lose same with gekkos/trebs
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Post by slipknot1325 on Nov 21, 2017 20:41:37 GMT -5
I have no problem dodging zenith or norcrim, I’m not gonna say they are worthless but you definitely need to know when to ditch and jump into the fight head first.
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Post by TravLar on Nov 22, 2017 1:49:11 GMT -5
With the vast majority of games won by beacon control, War Robots is primarily a territory game. Arty setups cannot meaningfully challenge the territory. A pilot who elects to play artillery has only two chances of victory - a thoroughly synchronised group of teammates, or an enemy team of underlevelled players and morons. Considering the difficulty most of us experience to find either of these things with any regularity, this may explain the hate for artillery from your teammates. I should've stated that I only play domination 'cos that's a factor in what your team will face in a battle. In Domination long-range Treb and Gekko fire often prevents blue brawlers from getting into the fray, or they arrive severely damaged. What I'm saying is that if these are a factor in a game, artillery is very good answer to that. I run him if he's needed to help the team. Springfield and Yama normally have red Treb and Gekko fire that devastates blue brawlers trying to get regain beacon control. Having had one available, I've been surprised at how often it is a great help to the team. I also play in iOS Diamond where there are basically zero dashes.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 22, 2017 1:53:33 GMT -5
I respect Artillery when used skillfully and smartly to actually effect the outcome of the match, instead of sitting there, firing at someone without leading your shots, blowing your whole load, while there's a Griffin capping a beacon, or Thunder Raijin blocking the advance of our teammates.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Nov 22, 2017 2:14:48 GMT -5
I respect Artillery when used skillfully and smartly to actually effect the outcome of the match, instead of sitting there, firing at someone without leading your shots, blowing your whole load, while there's a Griffin capping a beacon, or Thunder Raijin blocking the advance of our teammates. Or snipers that play like a shotgun party on a weekend bender.
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Post by TravLar on Nov 22, 2017 2:16:51 GMT -5
I disagree. Artillery is only efficient against unskilled pilots. Skilled pilots will avoid artillery with ease, even snipers. (Yeah, snipers will take some damage, but not enough to kill them in a reasonable time.) The fact that @travlar claims that artillery is efficient on pretty much every map just says something about the state of the game. Of course, even unskilled pilots can do damage - one of my main problems with War Robots, the dominance of no-skill weapons. In those games an artillery bot helps. But in a game against a good team any artillery robot is a liability. And I build my hangar for those good games, not the games where defeat or victory comes down to whether it's 4vs2 or 2vs4 crappy randoms. Also note that the damage from Zenits is almost negligible (unless, again, the target is stationary). A Noricum Patton is much more efficient than a Zenit Nori Natty. Hmm, I've been on the receiving end of many good artillery bombings. By good, I mean that it kept me from doing what I was supposed to do. Because most of my bots are mediums, I can't afford to baby sit a beacon, and the few seconds it takes to cap a beacon, or the many seconds it takes to steal it, I'm a sitting duck, and artillery can usually take a good chunk of my health. It's like chess, or a better example, Chinese chess. You know that piece? The cannon? The one that can only attack if there is another piece in between? And a classic move is to put two cannons in line so that they can both check the king? One of the best artillery setups I've faced is the Arty Natty in the back, with a sniper build beside, or a mid range zeus or RDB a little further up. This combination is murder on Yam, SF and Canyon. This a great comment Koalabear. It shows real understanding of how a combination of defense or attack is what leads to control of the battlefield.
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Post by TravLar on Nov 22, 2017 2:20:58 GMT -5
Most of us have access to a nice blue umbrella for that rain . Fujin is very nice for that sort quibble . A sniper gives less warning and more damage . Yes its not a Fujin counter. Its a Treb Butch, Gekko Treb Leo or Fury counter.
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Post by TravLar on Nov 22, 2017 2:27:59 GMT -5
Please don't confuse using artillery with a sniping Gekko Patton. The two are not comparable and attempting to conflate the two, because of effective range doesn't make for a valid argument. Try to find an example of artillery making a comparable impact. Once in a blue dog moon, maybe, but the super majority of the time artillery folk are simply ignored until they can be cleaned up for silver. This is a fair comment stokr, artillery and sniping are different. Artillery would have been an excellent counter to the damage he was dishing out though.
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Post by frunobulax on Nov 22, 2017 3:10:45 GMT -5
I suggest to try artillery on the test server to evaluate how much damage it really does. I think many of the pro-artillery points are valid, but are hampered by a simple fact: The damage just isn't high enough. On FB GR it happens on occasions that you're up against 3-4 Zenit/Nori builds. I was once in a fun match, 4 Zenit campers on my team, 4 Zenit Nattys (or something like that) on the red team on Valley. I charged with an Ancilot, got close and took out one Zenit chucker without taking a lot of damage, even though all 4 were firing at me. They wore down my Ancile quickly while I approached, but even at the slow Lance crawl I was too fast for Zenits. It were some punishers and Magnums that eventually got me. (Of course we won the match easily.)
Even if I'm in a slow bot (say Natty), my goddam job is to move around whenever there is Artillery coming in. And that way I'll still be efficient (I move all the time even if there is no artillery) and only get minimal damage. The odd Zenit/Nori will hit me now and then, but what the heck? A Natty is beefy enough to take some damage. And Raijins (the only stationary bot) are so rare, at least in higher leagues, is it really worth to have a bot in the lineup that is specifically anti-Raijin? Even snipers can move around quite a lot, especially if they have Trebs where they need only a very short firing window. I have tried (both on TS and live server) to take out snipers with artillery, and it took long with stupid snipers and was nearly impossible with smart snipers.
Artillery would be efficient with 50% more damage, but do I want that? Hell no. Artillery is a low-skill weapon, and low-skill weapons should have a lower damage output than high-skill weapons. (If we pretended we had some balance there at all.)
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Post by AVC on Nov 22, 2017 4:30:04 GMT -5
When the DM mode was about I was running a Zenit/Noricum Tash for fun and it was very effective. I know how to lead targets. Less useful in DOM, and BR. I rarely use it now. Sometimes for a bit of a laugh. One funny thing which happened a few days ago, (on BR actually) was two reds thought they would do a breakthrough and take out the Tash. I just waited for them to kill me while I rained shells on targets further away. They kill me. I immediately drop my best close ranger right there. It was like fish in a barrel
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Post by Bui Dui on Nov 22, 2017 5:03:58 GMT -5
I think when the second hangar becomes a reality, people will start to appreciate the variety of play that we still have in this game. Yam, SF and Canyon are all places where an artillery bot can make a difference in the game. Hard to concentrate on knife fighting when your screen keeps shaking and noris keep chipping away at your HP. Heck, I've even seen artillery used effectively on smaller maps like Moon and Valley and PP. Still, I do agree. 1 artillery bot is good. 2 is better. 3 is a crowd. The most effective use of artillery I've seen was in Team Death Match. This was, of course, because there was no impetus to push for beacons. Since this is gone, the build seems to not be near as useful in every battle. I can see a use in certain situations, but I prefer my hangers to have bots that are versatile enough to do significant damage on any/every map and within the current meta. I carry no long range bots and only one mid ranger (Zeus Fury).
I will say that, if a pilot decides to use an artillery bot, the idea of using one first is not smart. That's why I'm glad the OP mentioned using it 2nd or 3rd. Depending on the game mode, your first bot should be able to participate significantly in the capture of the home beacons (first) and then the capture and holding of the highly contested center beacon (or strategic beacons if you're playing on the Moon map). Only when you have control over the CB is removing snipers a priority (or some would say a luxury). Getting a beacon bar lead is critical in allowing flexibility in mid/late game decisions. For Domination, I usually drop my Ancilot, but for BR (when I play it, which is rare) I usually drop my Rhino or Haechi. If you're going to run an arty bot, I do get frustrated when I see it first. How do you know it will be effective if you don't really know your targets yet?
If you don't spawn before the battle starts, you can see red teams line-up. There is like 1 out of 10 situations when this doesn't work, but it's worth those 5 seconds gametime.
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Post by DarkVagabond on Nov 22, 2017 5:31:16 GMT -5
With the vast majority of games won by beacon control, War Robots is primarily a territory game. Arty setups cannot meaningfully challenge the territory. A pilot who elects to play artillery has only two chances of victory - a thoroughly synchronised group of teammates, or an enemy team of underlevelled players and morons. Considering the difficulty most of us experience to find either of these things with any regularity, this may explain the hate for artillery from your teammates. I should've stated that I only play domination 'cos that's a factor in what your team will face in a battle. In Domination long-range Treb and Gekko fire often prevents blue brawlers from getting into the fray, or they arrive severely damaged. What I'm saying is that if these are a factor in a game, artillery is very good answer to that. I run him if he's needed to help the team. Springfield and Yama normally have red Treb and Gekko fire that devastates blue brawlers trying to get regain beacon control. Having had one available, I've been surprised at how often it is a great help to the team. I also play in iOS Diamond where there are basically zero dashes. I get the strategy, but it really isn’t the most effective one. The most effective counter to lots of Trebs and Gekkos in Domination is to pressure the beacons. That way the snipers have to ditch their bots if they want any chance of winning the match. The Rhino can do this well for example. It doesn’t matter if they arrive severely damaged, what matters is that they still arrive and make that beacon blue. And they can’t do that if they haven’t got another teammate alongside them willing to absorb an RDB salvo so that at least one of you can flick the beacon. That’s why your teammates shoot at artillery users. Because every one of them knows what it feels like when you get eaten alive by 2 RDBs because your teammates aren’t playing setups that challenge the territory and win the match. I suppose if you’re having fun and you can get away with it in the majority of your matches, play the setups you enjoy. It IS a game after all. But the key words are ‘getting away with it’. If people start using phrases like ‘very effective’ and ‘not respected enough’, that’s when I simply cannot concur. Just because Diamond League allows a player to compete with setups that would automatically lose a match at top tier, it doesn’t mean we can start advocating them as effective equivalents to meta setups and skilled territory control.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 22, 2017 13:12:16 GMT -5
I will play artillery build if I get frustrated and just want to make red miserable for awhile but I don't camp and I never run pure artillery. I will stick a tempest on a Natty and run it with Noricum and Zenit. That way when you make them move, you have something to hammer them with. Works really good if red decides to charge the artillery. But its pretty useless when there are dashes w/anciles on the field. I have played a few games where I ran artillery as a joke and changed outcome in a positive way and a few when I have been on receiving end of effective artillery.
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Post by GuitarGuy on Nov 22, 2017 14:03:00 GMT -5
It really depends on the league. In IOS Champ its like most other campers-in effective (this does not include MK2 trebs/Zeus/MK2 Gekko). Ive seen it used somewhat effectively in conjunction with a highly aggressive clan squad, but its really more of a novelty. Most of the bots in my league have an ancile. There are many more load outs that effectively take down ancile and deter the advance of reds. A seasoned player does not plan a hanger around long maps, rather knows how to navigate a long map with brawler bots to avoid getting wiped out by campers-meaning, you don't use snipers to counter snipers. Why? Because short maps a camper is such a detriment to a team. That will change with alternate hangers, but long maps still need beacons captured. I am constantly amazed with players that assume no responsibility in winning a match-camp camp camp. Ive had matches where I just give up on capping for the team - I let the red team take them and advance on the line of 5 campers on my team to allow those juicy camping bots to become bags of silver for the reds. I had one this morning-Why play this game if you do not intend on winning the map you planned your hanger around (it was on Canyon-5 campers that did pitiful damage and capped 0 beacons) once again.. 100% spot on... Fahq and I are in the same league and both play alot with and against each other. As Champions that understand the liability of range we understand the need for one in hangar, where we have issues is seeing pilots with 3 and 4 range bots in hangar. I hear all reasons range is "cool" but all it takes is one look at there stats and it tell all. Heres the deal. If you want to hang in the upper leagues you MUST be able to average at least 4.0 kill stats to be effective otherwise your just trading robot for robot at best. Most range guys I see have 2.5 kill stats or less. I see lots of 1.6 to 1.9. Thats means your killing less then 2 bots for your whole hangar. If your saying "well, I usually have 2 or 3 bots left at the end of a game" then theres a deeper problem, if your losing those games with bots left, your not pulling your weight for the team, plan and simple. In the upper league the ideal is to be on your last bot by the end of the game or close to it, that means you pushed hard enough to get the maximum damage and or beacon control from your hangar. Another thing I look at with range pilots is win rate. most of them are in the 30% range. With an MM that in theory will keep you close to 50%, if your in the correct league and playing to win, you shouldnt get too much below 40% for long. I see guys down in the 25% range with most all LR in hangar and they simply wont do anything to help the team. This is the main reason people who brawl and control the map dont like campers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 14:05:46 GMT -5
Well, probably 95% of build u see are yust testing low level stuff, means by the time the red range is taken out, he done a lot of dmg already. Thats why the hate. We all now it can be effective (leveled up), but how many really commit to it? Also, a good range user wont get hit by zenits so easy, if at all. Noricums, thats a different story.
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Post by GuitarGuy on Nov 22, 2017 14:52:38 GMT -5
Well, probably 95% of build u see are yust testing low level stuff, means by the time the red range is taken out, he done a lot of dmg already. Thats why the hate. We all now it can be effective (leveled up), but how many really commit to it? Also, a good range user wont get hit by zenits so easy, if at all. Noricums, thats a different story. So your saying 95% of the time its just pilots "testing" hangars of mostly range. I find that very hard to believe. Personally I think that just what they like to say when they get caught with a hangar full of it and are at the bottom of the pile with kill,damage and beacons. When I test a build, it would be just one. Not a whole hangar full.
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Post by ༒ƜƦƛƖƬӇ༒ on Nov 22, 2017 15:54:27 GMT -5
FOR THE RECORD... I love Artillery.. if played right, by someone who knows how to use it, how to lead with it and knows when mech-out .. likes keeps an eye on the beacons and the Blues status.. A really good Artillery player, knowing when to hold'em and when to fold'em.. can be a huge asset and a game changer
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Post by GuitarGuy on Nov 22, 2017 16:04:21 GMT -5
No doubt, good artillery can be helpful. The problem is many people run too much of it and they think there "The Guy" when it comes to running it. I guess the "hate" is something you will come to understand should you move up into Champion League and you play solo with lower level players that have hangars full of it and your losing all the time but still the top guy with beacons and damage.
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Post by bronzeknee on Nov 22, 2017 16:09:25 GMT -5
No doubt, good artillery can be helpful. The problem is many people run too much of it and they think there "The Guy" when it comes to running it. I guess the "hate" is something you will come to understand should you move up into Champion League and you play solo with lower level players that have hangars full of it and your losing all the time but still the top guy with beacons and damage. I completely agree with this, but I also run one Treb/Gekko Natasha. You really have to be active as a sniper and know when to bail. Also don't be afraid to just absorb damage for your team. I'd much rather the enemy snipers focus me than my knifers. Since I am in Expert league and constantly get thrown in with Champion league hangers, if I run 5 knifers I will mech out very quickly. But I can deal good damage from a distance and preserve my knifers for when I need them by running a sniper.
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Post by GuitarGuy on Nov 22, 2017 16:22:45 GMT -5
No doubt, good artillery can be helpful. The problem is many people run too much of it and they think there "The Guy" when it comes to running it. I guess the "hate" is something you will come to understand should you move up into Champion League and you play solo with lower level players that have hangars full of it and your losing all the time but still the top guy with beacons and damage. I completely agree with this, but I also run one Treb/Gekko Natasha. You really have to be active as a sniper and know when to bail. Also don't be afraid to just absorb damage for your team. I'd much rather the enemy snipers focus me than my knifers. Since I am in Expert league and constantly get thrown in with Champion league hangers, if I run 5 knifers I will mech out very quickly. But I can deal good damage from a distance and preserve my knifers for when I need them by running a sniper. I totally get that and I agree. If the MM is giving me long map after long map I will take out one brawler and run one range. However, in the past month I have gotten to were I only run brawlers and no range. However, I do have a maxed hangar and I agree, When your not leveled up it makes it hard to brawl with maxed bots. The key thing is to learn the moves. I dont know how many times I see Expert League guys use there jump on a Griffin to dive right in the middle of a fire fight. Well, This would explain why you get killed so fast. Use the jump to escape not attack. The hardest thing I had to learn about brawling is patience and situational awareness. You can get so caught up in stalking a red that you dont even realize another red was stalking you the whole time. I know its frustrating. You are almost in range and have been eyeing a particular Red for over a minute and then BAM! you get nuked by a DB Griffin that was stalking you. Many give up and run range because they feel its "safer" somehow. Brawling effectively takes time but it is the most important skill along with understanding the dominance bar if you want to move up and consistently win. Dont believe me? look at the legends league. how many range rigs do you see? Now how many brawlers do you see? There is your Proof in what really works.
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Post by F-A-H-Q on Nov 23, 2017 0:04:57 GMT -5
There is one alternative-learn to cap and brawl in your fury! I do it all the time with mine. My zeus fury will wreck some fools on dead city or PP not from a camping position but actively on the battle field, most matches I don't get to the point I have to use him. What really chaps my hide is seeing guys roll a range bot first on a short map. If you run range in your hanger and you get a short map never run your range bot first. Try to make your brawlers last. Practicing this will make you a much better pilot all around.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2017 3:37:45 GMT -5
Well, probably 95% of build u see are yust testing low level stuff, means by the time the red range is taken out, he done a lot of dmg already. Thats why the hate. We all now it can be effective (leveled up), but how many really commit to it? Also, a good range user wont get hit by zenits so easy, if at all. Noricums, thats a different story. So your saying 95% of the time its just pilots "testing" hangars of mostly range. I find that very hard to believe. Personally I think that just what they like to say when they get caught with a hangar full of it and are at the bottom of the pile with kill,damage and beacons. When I test a build, it would be just one. Not a whole hangar full. I was refering to the hangar the op described, 1, maybe 2 artillery setups. Wich is what i most saw across all leagues. A hangar full of it, or yust full of range, belongs to a troll imo, not worth discussing.
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