|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 20, 2017 19:59:09 GMT -5
OMG, I just got done playing an E3 level match. Other team had a Bulg start with shocktrain. I went after with my rog and died horribly. Pulled a tempest lance to go hunt it and got engaged, all the while getting hit with Shocktrain ricochets 150m away from a teammate who was getting drilled at 500m trying to outsnipe a shocktrain bulgesari with a zeus carnage. That did not go well for anyone on our side within 150 of the carny. Looked like we were going to get routed when all of the sudden a teammate runs a shocktrain Mark II 12/12 Bulgesari and basically runs the table, twice, with limited help from the rest of us. We won but that weapon is absurd. Totally no fun to play a match involving shocktrains with ppl who know what they are doing. If it gets out much more in the wild to where more ppl start running it, I am going to look for a new game. Anyway, here are the stats and grabs from the match. Team Score: Top Dog for Blue (all weapons were mark II lvl 12): Top Dog for Red (a few mk II weapons, most between 10-12):
|
|
|
Post by ᕲΣΣᕲƧ on Nov 21, 2017 0:20:59 GMT -5
「whiskey tango foxtrot」 was Pixonic thinking seriously?!
|
|
|
Post by bronzeknee on Nov 21, 2017 0:30:07 GMT -5
「whiskey tango foxtrot」 was Pixonic thinking seriously?! $$$$
|
|
|
Post by ᕲΣΣᕲƧ on Nov 21, 2017 0:35:02 GMT -5
「whiskey tango foxtrot」 was Pixonic thinking seriously?! $$$$ A better question might be 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 am I thinking? I wish I didn't still like most of this as much as I hate the shocktrain. My patience is wearing out.
|
|
|
Post by bronzeknee on Nov 21, 2017 0:37:13 GMT -5
You aren't playing right now are you? Raptor Tactics and Scrap Yard Kings are on the ladder right now in full squads running MK2 Shocktrains and the game is depressing me.
My squad is getting rolled... a month or two ago, we'd be an even fight with these guys. This one weapon is destroying the game.
|
|
|
Post by The VVatcher on Nov 21, 2017 0:42:14 GMT -5
A better question might be 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 am I thinking? I wish I didn't still like most of this as much as I hate the shocktrain. My patience is wearing out. Yup, me too. After 3 years, my time on this game might be determined by how they balance this weapon. Or if they repeat this mistake. The Shocktrain breaks the rules of the game and follows a wierd logic: unblockable by any shield except Lancelot, Rhino, and Raijin. It's like a kid designed this thing.
|
|
|
Post by T34 on Nov 21, 2017 0:45:27 GMT -5
Without having access to the numbers I wonder if the nerf is going to balance the ST. got this feeling it wont.
Could this be a buff for the lance?
|
|
|
Post by eco on Nov 21, 2017 0:49:27 GMT -5
A better question might be 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 am I thinking? I wish I didn't still like most of this as much as I hate the shocktrain. My patience is wearing out. Yes mee too. The ST are not that frequent right now. And not all ST players are good. But if there is one dominating the match or three or more korean bots I started quitting the match.
|
|
|
Post by ᕲΣΣᕲƧ on Nov 21, 2017 0:54:28 GMT -5
You aren't playing right now are you? Raptor Tactics and Scrap Yard Kings are on the ladder right now in full squads running MK2 Shocktrains and the game is depressing me. My squad is getting rolled... a month or two ago, we'd be an even fight with these guys. This one weapon is destroying the game. Yeah I'm on now. And just saw the RT/SYK squad... Maybe we'll run into you. I saw you the other day. edit: lost the first game to them, we destroyed them the 2nd game.
|
|
|
Post by F-A-H-Q on Nov 21, 2017 0:58:05 GMT -5
Right now the only counter is to kill the shocktrain pilot as fast as possible. This usually involves a sacrifice as the rest of the reds know a shocktrain will wipe out your side. I've had good success using taran ancilot to get these guys, zeus is another. Even a PDB is awesome if you can get close. You will get hit in doing so but it must be done. If a bulgasari then orks or tridents. RDB is great for bulgasari kills. Ever see an mk2 RDB? They are crazy powerful. Point is, the shocktrain pilot has to be eliminated ASAP. I routinely have matches with more than one or players running more than one shocktrain bot in their hanger. It's fun to beat these guys.
|
|
|
Post by one4all on Nov 21, 2017 0:58:50 GMT -5
I might dislike many things about the new bots and weapons but by far this one takes the cake. I keep sending Pixonix messages, to no avail. Basically I suggest, what im doing. Quit the game if you see a dash with shocktrains on the other team. And if one is on your team totally troll them. Quit playing and just find a way to annoy them. Push them into the open, block their outs, get in their way of firing, etc... If they want this game to survive much longer Pix. will at least have to give on this crazy ignorant weapon.
|
|
|
Post by noobcake on Nov 21, 2017 1:04:41 GMT -5
Without having access to the numbers I wonder if the nerf is going to balance the ST. got this feeling it wont.
Could this be a buff for the lance? The nerf won’t balance the weapon since it only reduces the chained hit damage. Initial damage is still quite high. Damage still continues to chain teammates despite being blocked by shields. Damage and chain damage is still instantaneous which makes the weapon unavoidable (especially for teammates). Chains travel to mid and long range teammates that are really far from the initial target. The lance is will probably not have a noticeable buff as a result of the shocktrain nerf.
|
|
|
Post by Poopface on Nov 21, 2017 12:02:09 GMT -5
I played a match last night where I got hit by a Shocktrain ricochet through the ramp on Yama. I was underneath it with nobody even remotely close except for on top of the ramp. Wonderful....
PS Shout out to my clanmate for #1 damage on the Red team on the OP!
|
|
|
Post by bronzeknee on Nov 21, 2017 12:27:04 GMT -5
If you are spending $$ thinking you will win more matches, you are chasing fools gold, imo. I am strong believer that people should be intellectually honest. Seems you've had a reckoning. Clearly, you'll win more matches if you spend money on the Shocktrain. I've seen people with 92% win rates running Shocktrains. That is why the top of the ladder is broken. War Robots is a pay to win game.
|
|
|
Post by ᎶƦ℮℮ƊᎽ ƤΛƝƊΛ on Nov 21, 2017 12:37:06 GMT -5
Without having access to the numbers I wonder if the nerf is going to balance the ST. got this feeling it wont.
Could this be a buff for the lance? They're nerfing the chain damage by 15%, which will have basically no effect. The biggest problem is this weapon deals instant damage to the primary target and is a two shot kill on any bot in the game when in a trio mk II. The fact it also weakens other targets is just a bonus for the user, but you could remove the chain altogether and it would still be ridiculously OP.
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 12:39:58 GMT -5
If you are spending $$ thinking you will win more matches, you are chasing fools gold, imo. I am strong believer that people should be intellectually honest. Seems you've had a reckoning. Obviously, you can pay $$ to compete at a higher level and yes, that impacts performance of your hangar, where we disagree is about the definition of PTW. You say spending large amounts of RM to do what I just described is "paying to win" and in a sense it is. You are paying to get a stronger hangar and certainly players with dominant OP hangars are more likely to win. But to me, PTW implies quid pro quo. I'd say that hangar owners are more akin to owners of sports teams or horses. If it is PTW, it is PTW in the same sense that NBA teams or horseracing owners spend Big $$ to hire best talent. The point of dashes was to make existing hangars obsolete and enforce product lifecycle but their introduction has had negative effect on matches. That said, still not P2W in the sense that I was meaning, even in match I posted, there was some attempt by MM algorithm to balance the sides, including in terms of ridiculous OP hangars.
|
|
|
Post by Koalabear on Nov 21, 2017 12:42:37 GMT -5
Does the shocktrain have lock on?
Sorry for your pain, but this just makes me want a shocktrain all that much more!
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 12:44:56 GMT -5
Does the shocktrain have lock on? Sorry for your pain, but this just makes me want a shocktrain all that much more! I kinda think you'll get one right before they nerf it.
|
|
|
Post by bronzeknee on Nov 21, 2017 12:50:25 GMT -5
I am strong believer that people should be intellectually honest. Seems you've had a reckoning. Obviously, you can pay $$ to compete at a higher level and yes, that impacts performance of your hangar, where we disagree is about the definition of PTW. You say spending large amounts of RM to do what I just described is "paying to win" and in a sense it is. You are paying to get a stronger hangar and certainly players with dominant OP hangars are more likely to win. But to me, PTW implies quid pro quo. I'd say that hangar owners are more akin to owners of sports teams or horses. If it is PTW, it is PTW in the same sense that NBA teams or horseracing owners spend Big $$ to hire best talent. The point of dashes was to make existing hangars obsolete and enforce product lifecycle but their introduction has had negative effect on matches. That said, still not P2W in the sense that I was meaning, even in match I posted, there was some attempt by MM algorithm to balance the sides, including in terms of ridiculous OP hangars. I look forward to your next thread complaining about the game when you reach Expert I and face a full squad from a clan SKY with 92, 94 or even 96% win rates at the top of the ladder. The development I've seen from you in a little over a week arguing that everything is basically balanced and people need to stop complaining to "OMG" in a thread title and threatening to quit over balance is quite humorous to me. You see, there is no "in the sense I was meaning" when it comes to the definitions of words or terms. You and I don't get to redefine them, either you use the right definition or you don't, it is binary. Pay to win has never meant literal pay to win, and assuming or suggesting so is a strawman. So I think you just stop intentionally changing definitions so you can win arguments. Obviously if I can redefine anything, I'd win every argument too. We all have to play by the same rules, it is why War Robots is pay to win and why we don't get to redefine terms. Lastly, look at his winrate. Is it higher than yours? Did he pay more? I'm 100% certain you could collect data and easily note a statistically significant winrate difference in players than pay versus players that don't pay (obviously excluding the bottom of the ladder where players play a few games, lose, decide they don't like the game and move on). I generally avoid gambling, but I'd bet on it.
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 12:55:58 GMT -5
Without having access to the numbers I wonder if the nerf is going to balance the ST. got this feeling it wont.
Could this be a buff for the lance? They're nerfing the chain damage by 15%, which will have basically no effect. The biggest problem is this weapon deals instant damage to the primary target and is a two shot kill on any bot in the game when in a trio mk II. The fact it also weakens other targets is just a bonus for the user, but you could remove the chain altogether and it would still be ridiculously OP. Personally, I see it as a rapid fire mass casualty sniper weapon. I would rather take them on HTH. Armor of a lance appears to protect from primary hit and total horsepower of wpn is not too bad unless lvl 11 or 12. The total secondary damage from the wpn usually hit 1x to 2x the primary damage on small fields. That is not a small thing on maps like Shenzen where, by design you will have 2-3 clusters of 2-3 bots and all clusters are w/in 300m of each other. Center beacon of Yamatau it can be 2.5x damage to the team that grabs center beacon, all from a range of 600m. If they let it keep secondary dam, way to nerf it is to increase lag in firing mechanism. They compare to Treb, but Treb takes 23 secs to fully recharge, not 8.
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 13:01:29 GMT -5
Obviously, you can pay $$ to compete at a higher level and yes, that impacts performance of your hangar, where we disagree is about the definition of PTW. You say spending large amounts of RM to do what I just described is "paying to win" and in a sense it is. You are paying to get a stronger hangar and certainly players with dominant OP hangars are more likely to win. But to me, PTW implies quid pro quo. I'd say that hangar owners are more akin to owners of sports teams or horses. If it is PTW, it is PTW in the same sense that NBA teams or horseracing owners spend Big $$ to hire best talent. The point of dashes was to make existing hangars obsolete and enforce product lifecycle but their introduction has had negative effect on matches. That said, still not P2W in the sense that I was meaning, even in match I posted, there was some attempt by MM algorithm to balance the sides, including in terms of ridiculous OP hangars. I look forward to your next thread complaining about the game when you reach Expert I and face a full squad from a clan SKY with 92, 94 or even 96% win rates at the top of the ladder. The development I've seen from you in a little over a week arguing that everything is basically balanced and people need to stop complaining to "OMG" in a thread title and threatening to quit over balance is quite humorous to me. You see, there is no "in the sense I was meaning" when it comes to the definitions of words or terms. You and I don't get to redefine them, either you use the right definition or you don't, it is binary. Pay to win has never meant literal pay to win, and assuming or suggesting so is a strawman. So I think you just stop intentionally changing definitions so you can win arguments. Obviously if I can redefine anything, I'd win every argument too. We all have to play by the same rules, it is why War Robots is pay to win and why we don't get to redefine terms. My definition is the same as in earlier conversation, which I am sure you will acknowledge, given your strong feelings about the importance of intellectual honesty. I literally repeated exact same meaning of the term and analogy as I had used it in previous thread. Literally same analogy to horseracing, so please take your own advice and be intellectually honest about that. As to the rest, the conversation is silly. A cursory view of my posts illustrats that you either badly understand or are misrepresenting for reasons I do not understand, my views on these matters.
|
|
|
Post by bronzeknee on Nov 21, 2017 13:03:59 GMT -5
Sure, so in your "pay to be elite" world, do you think that the "elite players" who paid win more? You told us you did not think so in the last thread.
So unless you've changed I look forward to your next thread complaining about the game when you reach Expert I and face a full squad from a clan SKY with 92, 94 or even 96% win rates at the top of the ladder. Because players who pay money at the top, do win more. Did you note the 74% winrate that guy has in Champion? Elite players play Elite players. And the ones that paid money for the Shocktrain win more because... well you know how powerful it is. That is just basic if A > B and B > C, so A > C. No fancy tricks there.
I really just enjoy watching you touch the hot the stove that Pixonic provides us, after telling us it isn't hot. But I have a feeling we're going to get into a semantic discussion regarding the meaning of elite, because the dictionary definition won't suffice for you.
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 13:12:30 GMT -5
Sure, so in your "pay to be elite" world, do you think that the "elite players" who paid win more? You told us you did not think so in the last thread. So unless you've changed I look forward to your next thread complaining about the game when you reach Expert I and face a full squad from a clan SKY with 92, 94 or even 96% win rates at the top of the ladder. Because players who pay money at the top, do win more. Did you not note the 74% winrate that guy has in Champion? I really just enjoy watching you touch the hot the stove that Pixonic provides us, after telling us it isn't hot. GSW won 76.5% of games in 2017. Barcelona FC won 82.5%. Are they also PTW? Pro sports leagues consist of teams that spend millions hiring and training best talent, which places them at a caliber above training grounds such as colleges and universities who spend millions more than their training grounds, high schools and junior colleges. Also PTW? Honestly, you come across mostly like someone jealous about something they do not have hence the need to bicker and make false attributions about trivial matters such as these b/c we are in agreement that how pix rolled these out was awful and the damage they have done to higher level leagues and I have expressed sympathy for those who got priced out as symptomatic of a broader cultural problem. All of which was expressed in the earlier thread.
|
|
|
Post by bronzeknee on Nov 21, 2017 13:32:57 GMT -5
Sure, so in your "pay to be elite" world, do you think that the "elite players" who paid win more? You told us you did not think so in the last thread. So unless you've changed I look forward to your next thread complaining about the game when you reach Expert I and face a full squad from a clan SKY with 92, 94 or even 96% win rates at the top of the ladder. Because players who pay money at the top, do win more. Did you not note the 74% winrate that guy has in Champion? I really just enjoy watching you touch the hot the stove that Pixonic provides us, after telling us it isn't hot. GSW won 76.5% of games in 2017. Barcelona FC won 82.5%. Are they also PTW? Honestly, you come across mostly like someone jealous about something they do not have hence the need to make false attributions about trivial matters. Ahh... we've opened the can of worms known as the texas sharpshooter. It is just like one logical fallacy after another here... paint those bullseyes around the holes in the barn... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacyLet's break this down real simple, shed all "evidence" and use basic logic: Let's assume 1-4 are true: 1) Jimmy is a Champion player. 2) Jack is a Champion player. 3) Jack and Jimmy both win 50% of the time against each other. 4) They are equally skill. 5) Pixonic releases the Shocktrain and the Haechi. 6) Jimmy buys three Shocktrains and a Haechi. 7) Jimmy now wins more often against Jack because OMFG: Shocktrain 2 million damage NOT COOL! And that's it. That is pay to win. He bought something that improved his win rate. You can go on and on about a changing meta, or whatever you want, but that is pay to win. Those are both top level players, the only difference between their win rates is that one paid. There are plenty of F2P games where the developers release new content that changes the meta for free. Those are not pay to win games. Alternatively, there are plenty of games where the developers release something you can buy that is balanced around everything else in the game. Those are not pay to win games either. And yes I am very jealous that I don't use fallacies all the time. But jelly of people who pay to win? I can afford to pay to win. But as a former professional gamer (yes I got paid to play games at tournaments) it doesn't really tickle my fancy. I want to win because I have more skill, it wouldn't have meant anything to me to if I paid money (paying money to get an edge is called match fixing at tournaments) to get an edge to improved my chances of winning games at tournaments. I want to be remembered as someone who was good because they were skilled. Not because I paid money. That is laughable. This is how I feel about pay to win:
|
|
|
Post by CrownBlack on Nov 21, 2017 13:39:28 GMT -5
A better question might be 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 am I thinking? I wish I didn't still like most of this as much as I hate the shocktrain. My patience is wearing out. Yup, me too. After 3 years, my time on this game might be determined by how they balance this weapon. Or if they repeat this mistake. The Shocktrain breaks the rules of the game and follows a wierd logic: unblockable by any shield except Lancelot, Rhino, and Raijin. It's like a kid designed this thing. yep have to admit it, I usually take things in stride but if this "thing" gets out of hand then I will hang em up also.
|
|
|
Post by Koalabear on Nov 21, 2017 13:39:34 GMT -5
Does the shocktrain have lock on? Sorry for your pain, but this just makes me want a shocktrain all that much more! I kinda think you'll get one right before they nerf it. Yeah, that's my gut feeling too! One isn't enough. I faced a red bot fielding one...it tickeled...
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 14:02:44 GMT -5
I kinda think you'll get one right before they nerf it. Yeah, that's my gut feeling too! One isn't enough. I faced a red bot fielding one...it tickeled... Right? After I posted this, I was on teams that shredded shocktrain-laden teams. You need at least two of them and leveled up pretty high and use them like an assassin. HTH, they are not too bad.
|
|
|
Post by Domino on Nov 21, 2017 14:15:29 GMT -5
Sure, so in your "pay to be elite" world, do you think that the "elite players" who paid win more? You told us you did not think so in the last thread. So unless you've changed I look forward to your next thread complaining about the game when you reach Expert I and face a full squad from a clan SKY with 92, 94 or even 96% win rates at the top of the ladder. Because players who pay money at the top, do win more. Did you not note the 74% winrate that guy has in Champion? I really just enjoy watching you touch the hot the stove that Pixonic provides us, after telling us it isn't hot. GSW won 76.5% of games in 2017. Barcelona FC won 82.5%. Are they also PTW? Pro sports leagues consist of teams that spend millions hiring and training best talent, which places them at a caliber above training grounds such as colleges and universities who spend millions more than their training grounds, high schools and junior colleges. Also PTW? Honestly, you come across mostly like someone jealous about something they do not have hence the need to bicker and make false attributions about trivial matters such as these b/c we are in agreement that how pix rolled these out was awful and the damage they have done to higher level leagues and I have expressed sympathy for those who got priced out as symptomatic of a broader cultural problem. All of which was expressed in the earlier thread. bronzeknee did a good job explaining why your analogy is wrong. I'll put it in football terms: The distance between the posts is 7.32 m (8 yds) and the distance from the lower edge of the crossbar to the ground is 2.44 m (8 ft). but ONLY for GSW side, distance between posts is 4m and lower edge of the crossbar to the ground is 1m. Is that a fair game? If you answered yes, you'll fit right in on Pixonic developers team.
|
|
|
Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 21, 2017 14:24:05 GMT -5
Let's break this down real simple, shed all "evidence" and use basic logic: ... logic snipped ... Again, all of this is silly b/c you are essentially making points I agree with in service to an invalid conclusion that I disagree with. I basically agree with you. The main difference is context of how we are referring to P2W and your false assertion that your definition is the most common or most valid. The examples I have provided demonstrate that is not the case b/c the behaviour you call P2W is demonstrated at every level of our sports culture and is not commonly regarded in any of those cultures as P2W in any literal sense. You complain about arguing semantics, but your entire argument is a semantic one. And an odd one at that -- the idea that context is irrelevent to the definition of a thing or how it is used. Anyway, whatever. It is not an interesting conversation.
|
|
|
Post by Thunderkiss on Nov 21, 2017 14:24:34 GMT -5
They're nerfing the chain damage by 15%, which will have basically no effect. The biggest problem is this weapon deals instant damage to the primary target and is a two shot kill on any bot in the game when in a trio mk II. The fact it also weakens other targets is just a bonus for the user, but you could remove the chain altogether and it would still be ridiculously OP. Personally, I see it as a rapid fire mass casualty sniper weapon. I would rather take them on HTH. Armor of a lance appears to protect from primary hit and total horsepower of wpn is not too bad unless lvl 11 or 12. The total secondary damage from the wpn usually hit 1x to 2x the primary damage on small fields. That is not a small thing on maps like Shenzen where, by design you will have 2-3 clusters of 2-3 bots and all clusters are w/in 300m of each other. Center beacon of Yamatau it can be 2.5x damage to the team that grabs center beacon, all from a range of 600m. If they let it keep secondary dam, way to nerf it is to increase lag in firing mechanism. They compare to Treb, but Treb takes 23 secs to fully recharge, not 8. You'd never get close to them.
|
|