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Post by frunobulax on Sept 13, 2017 4:32:06 GMT -5
The Leo is one of the three silver heavy robots. It has a high HP value, decent speed and good firepower, and can support a variety of builds. It is very well suited for new players, as it shines in lower leagues with Thunder/Punisher or Thunder/Magnum loadouts, which are available for silver or WSPs. It also has a very wide range of possible builds, making it viable as brawler, midranger and sniper. In general, the Leo can use all setups that the Natasha can use too. The Natasha has more firepower (one heavy slot replaces one light slot) but less HP. There are a large number of possible loadouts, and the Leo is indeed a very versatile robot: - Thunder Punisher. This is a versatile setup that can deal a huge amount of damage, especially if you're up close.
This build is both a brick fighter and a kind-of-midrange setup. As for brickfighting, there is few finesse in piloting it. Think of it as coming right at your opponent and hit it with a brick (Thunder) until it is done. You have to get close for that of course, but if you do, the matchup is usually decided. Then, Punishers have a second effective range, that is just outside of the range your opponent has (350m against Orkan builds, 400m against Plasma). Unlike Thunders, which have a huge dissipation rate, Punishers are reasonably effective from 400m and can deal quite a lot of damage against a target that can't fight back.
- Thunder Magnum. This is just another variant which has less burst than Pinatas, but more sustained fire. It's pretty much on par with a Punisher build, doing more damage from 300m but being weaker from 100m.
- Thunder Aphid. Now this one requires a very different strategy: Stay behind cover and aim your Aphids. With some luck, you'll hit your enemy with 2-3 Aphid salvos and can finish him off with your Thunder. The Leo is a good Aphid platform because he can pack 3 Aphids and has enough HP to compensate for some damage, and compared to say an Aphid Patton it has the additional heavy hardpoint to get itself out of trouble.
- Thermite Aphid. With the big brother of Aphid now available, you might go all in with guided rockets. (An argument can be made that the Ancile should be kept anyway, as an Aphid Leo will remain behind cover most of the time, and can only be attacked with splash rockets.)
- Ancile Punisher/Magnum/Aphid. All builds named before can be used with an Ancile instead of a Thunder. This will add an additional regenerating shield but sacrifice the raw power from the Thunder. These Leos are better used from 250m-350m range. My favorite among those is the Ancile Aphid Leo, as it can stay behind cover and use the Ancile to defend against rocket splash damage.
- Thunder Pinata. Pinatas deal a lot of damage in a short time, but they have much lower damage values once the initial burst is done. If you're ~250m away, you can peek out of cover, unload Pinatas and get back into cover. If you get within 100m, employ the brick fighter mentality and use your Thunder.
This build is more efficient against robots with physical shields, that will be damaged by the Pinatas, and against fast robots that are hard to catch with bullets, but can be hit with rockets if you lead them. If you use this build, it is a good leadoff robot.
However, the drawback is the very limited amount of damage from the Pinatas. 3 Pinatas have a burst damage of 70k, which is roughly as much as the burst from one Orkan. So a Thunder Orkan Lancelot has twice the splash burst capacity, which makes the Pinata Leo seem a bit underpowered, considering that Thunders really work only from 150m or closer.
- Ember Magnum or Ember Punisher. If one Ember falls to you, and you don't own a Lancelot, a Leo can be quite deadly with that Ember. However, the remaining weapons will have to deal with any shield (as Ember surpasses shields, but probably does not damage them - it certainly does not reduce Anciles), so I'd go either with Magnums (against Ancile builds) or Punishers (3 Punishers have a decent punch and can deal with shields).
- Pin/Trident. All previous builds were brawler/knife fighter builds. There are a few midrange and long range builds out there, too. Pin/Trident is a loadout that was very popular in earlier days as it has splash damage and is efficient against robots with physical shields, but has lost a bit of shine with the last updates. It has a decent firepower and HP and would be your favorite loadout if you prefer to fight from 450m away, but many would argue that there are much better midrangers (RDB Griffin, Trident/Zeus Carnage/Fury, Trident/Zeus Pin Natasha). A disadvantage is the limited range of the Pins (500m) that forces you to get closer than other midrange builds (Zeus/Trident with 600m) and dangerously close to the zone where Plasma will hit (350m).
- Zeus/Gekko or Dragoon Gekko. This build specializes on penetrating energy shields, and can be used both from large distance as sniper and ~600m as midrange setup. It's not among my favorite builds though, as I prefer to go either pure sniper (Gekko with Trebuchet/Nashorn) or pure midrange and 2 Zeus (Zeus Natty/Carnage).
- Molot Tempest. This is a setup designed to harass all robots that have a range of 600m or less, and the great thing about it is that you can stay just out of range - but if you're up against short range weapons, you can get closer and enjoy the higher DPS. If you're up against a Zeus Fury, stay at 700m and pound it. If you're up against a Plasma Griffin, get within 500m. Also, this is your setup if you have only one Tempest. (If you have two or more, go Natasha, Fury or Raijin).
Of course, the Tempest can't be bought outright at the moment, but Tempest components were reasonably cheap so if you target a Tempest you'll get it within a few weeks. Molot Zeus can be used if you don't have a Tempest. Tempest Punisher works nicely, too. Compared to Thunder Punisher it is much better at 400m, but obviously weaker at close range.
- Gekko Nashorn. This is a pure sniper setup, and a very efficient one at that - in fact it is arguably the best sniper setup in the game. 3 Gekkos will create a lot of DPS, and the Nashorn as both a bit of burst damage and evades the firing problem of the Trebuchet (see below). From 1000m, this build can do 55k damage in just 5 seconds, and it has 5k DPS over time (including reloads). These are very good numbers for a sniper.
The drawback of a sniper build is that it works well only on certain maps. On Moon this robot will be very inefficient.
Now, many players will argue that sniping in general is not efficient. I think this was true for a long time, but the Gekko has been buffed so much that snipers can now deal massive damage too, and many domination games on open maps are now won by the team that has the better snipers. I also think that this is an unfortunate development, as sniping is arguably the most boring strategy out there.
- Gekko Trebuchet. In theory, the Trebuchet is better than the Nashorn, because it deals the same damage over time (DPS with reloading), has higher burst and can penetrate energy shields. In practice however it creates a big problem: You can't fire 3 Gekkos easily without triggering the Trebuchet too. And a Trebuchet really needs to reload for at least 23s to be efficient, if you fire it every 3s it will do minimal damage. This can be circumvented, for example on facebook gameroom (where you can choose which weapons to fire with your right mouse button) or on an Android emulator, but if you play on a pad or phone this is a serious problem. Also the Trebuchet gives you away, other robots (including red snipers) will know exactly if you're behind cover or not, and adjust their strategy accordingly. And for precisely that reason I prefer to use a Nashorn instead of a Trebuchet.
Which loadout is the best? It's up to you. The Leo is a very good robot for new players, having access to heavy robots but lacking gold and WSPs. I'd recommend Punisher Thunder. Once WSPs are available, Magnum Thunder is an excellent option. In higher leagues the Leo will still be efficient, but there are builds out there that are better than the Leo. The only setup that I consider relevant in higher leagues is the sniper lineup, Nashorn Gekko or Trebuchet Gekko, even though it is underestimated by many players. So if you run a Leo, don't spend too much silver on upgrading it, because chances are that you will ditch it sooner or later for a Lancelot, Carnage, Rhino or Dash. If you're missing Thunder/Gust among the setups, I'm not a big fan of that. This setup works only at point blank range, and most robots will manage to stay out of that range. IMO, Punishers are much better suited for the Leo as they have better range. (Formally, both have 500m range. In practice, Punishers do reasonable damage from 400m out while Thunders, Storms and Gusts will hardly be felt.) Recommended reading: If you use Leo as a brawler, have a look at the brickfighting guide from Muhlakai . It's old and uses Boas, because the old matchmaking wouldn't match you against heavy robots if you ran an all-medium and light hangar yourself. But the technique applies to the Leo, too. Edit: Updated to 3.5 game version. You will find my other analysis threads linked here.
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Post by fιяєfℓαмє on Sept 13, 2017 5:55:21 GMT -5
Is there analysis for doc?
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Post by frunobulax on Sept 13, 2017 6:38:33 GMT -5
I plan to cover all robots, eventually. But not today
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Post by Koalabear on Sept 13, 2017 6:53:58 GMT -5
Thanks for this. I've been trying to find a use for my Leo and have been considering a sniper/anti sniper role for it. I was going to go with treb/gekko, but your thoughts on the nashorn has made me think.
Can you bump your other analysis? I'd love to read it too.
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Post by frunobulax on Sept 13, 2017 7:38:42 GMT -5
Thanks for this. I've been trying to find a use for my Leo and have been considering a sniper/anti sniper role for it. I was going to go with treb/gekko, but your thoughts on the nashorn has made me think. I did write something on that in another thread I think the Leo may be the best sniper build around, better even than Treb Fury.
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WizardSpartan
Recruit
Ugh. Another Plasma Griffin.
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Pilot name: WizardSpartan300
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Favorite robot: Carnage
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Post by WizardSpartan on Nov 29, 2017 11:35:48 GMT -5
On Test Server, I have comprehensively tested the Tempest Molot build. I am buying only Tempest components and am close to one. It has enough health to finish an enemy off in close range. Prob my favorite build.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2017 12:34:15 GMT -5
On Test Server, I have comprehensively tested the Tempest Molot build. I am buying only Tempest components and am close to one. It has enough health to finish an enemy off in close range. Prob my favorite build. I tried it and it's not strong enough, especially in higher leagues. You need at least 2 Tempests on a Natasha to deal enough damage in the short timespan you have before reds are able to take cover. @frenobulax What about the Magnum/Ember build? It looks very good to me.
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Post by darkknight on Nov 29, 2017 13:47:29 GMT -5
I run a lvl 10 mk2 golem and lvl 10 Leo..although once fire power both are same but defence wise Leo is little better..by any Chance does Leo have any type of sheild? Even if a weak one ? Although I have been playing game since long my leo usually stands out longer than natty (at same hp)..I might be wrong but well I thought maybe there is a very weak sheild which idk about
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Post by Ⓑⓞⓑ Ⓓⓨⓛⓐⓝ on Nov 29, 2017 14:33:03 GMT -5
On Test Server, I have comprehensively tested the Tempest Molot build. I am buying only Tempest components and am close to one. It has enough health to finish an enemy off in close range. Prob my favorite build. I tried it and it's not strong enough, especially in higher leagues. You need at least 2 Tempests on a Natasha to deal enough damage in the short timespan you have before reds are able to take cover. @frenobulax What about the Magnum/Ember build? It looks very good to me. I've used an ember/magnum Leo (10/11) and it was decent if you caught a lance by itself, otherwise for me it was too slow and anything with orkans could close the 350 -> 300 gap too quickly and low me up. I use my ember on a lvl12 MK2 golem with tarans and magnums and it's much better.
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Post by hon_shu on Nov 29, 2017 14:44:23 GMT -5
frunobulax, I really appreciate these analysis posts. The game makes it hard I know but we should be much more focussing on discussing strategies and builds than casinos and probabilities and obfuscated deals.
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Post by bronzeknee on Nov 29, 2017 14:46:28 GMT -5
I tried it and it's not strong enough, especially in higher leagues. You need at least 2 Tempests on a Natasha to deal enough damage in the short timespan you have before reds are able to take cover. @frenobulax What about the Magnum/Ember build? It looks very good to me. I've used an ember/magnum Leo (10/11) and it was decent if you caught a lance by itself, otherwise for me it was too slow and anything with orkans could close the 350 -> 300 gap too quickly and low me up. I use my ember on a lvl12 MK2 golem with tarans and magnums and it's much better. The Leo at a high level is basically dead at a high level unless you run Aphids. But the Vortex will kill it completely.
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Post by Ⓑⓞⓑ Ⓓⓨⓛⓐⓝ on Nov 29, 2017 14:48:20 GMT -5
I've used an ember/magnum Leo (10/11) and it was decent if you caught a lance by itself, otherwise for me it was too slow and anything with orkans could close the 350 -> 300 gap too quickly and low me up. I use my ember on a lvl12 MK2 golem with tarans and magnums and it's much better. The Leo at a high level is basically dead at a high level unless you run Aphids. But the Vortex will kill it completely. Even an Aphid Leo is dead meat above Expert League, too many bots will just eat the first salvo and come kill you. Every Leo I see above master league is a gekko build.
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Post by hon_shu on Nov 29, 2017 14:55:03 GMT -5
I run a lvl 10 mk2 golem and lvl 10 Leo..although once fire power both are same but defence wise Leo is little better..by any Chance does Leo have any type of sheild? Even if a weak one ? Although I have been playing game since long my leo usually stands out longer than natty (at same hp)..I might be wrong but well I thought maybe there is a very weak sheild which idk about Yes, it has a shield. It's called "56k more HP than a Lancelot" and it works from all sides and equally well against plasma and splash
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Post by frunobulax on Nov 29, 2017 18:12:05 GMT -5
On Test Server, I have comprehensively tested the Tempest Molot build. I am buying only Tempest components and am close to one. It has enough health to finish an enemy off in close range. Prob my favorite build. I love Tempest Molot or Tempest Punisher builds, but I slightly prefer a Natty or a Lance. I think Tempests may be a bit more accurate at distance than Molots, and a single Tempest has the damage potential of 2.5 Molots (or one Punisher). Lance of course has the advantage of the shield, even though it has less damage potential. But I really like the Tempest Punisher Natty, both because she's so cheap to upgrade and also because many pilots underestimate her, so if I'm in a flock of robots I often get taken out last despite doing probably the highest damage. Seems I can out-DPS any long distance build even at ~750m with 2 Tempests, so most snipers will run for cover (instead of taking the damage like they should, and kill me when I'm reloading). Mixing Tempests and Punishers will also make it harder for targets to see when I'm reloading (if they're within 500m), because the Punishers fire much longer and the Tempests are almost ready to go again when Punishers start reloading. The Leo of course has the advantage of more HP and a bit more speed. Still, if you build that Tempest Leo, either try it the Tempest a Lance or get a second Tempest and try the Natty
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 29, 2017 18:19:38 GMT -5
I have a tempest gekko leo that is pretty tough against higher level competition. I prefer it now to tempest lance, except with a scourge setup b/c it is less vulnerable to missile attacks and I like the burst damage of gekko and that overall dam and range compare favorably to molots. I use it to clear out snipers so that i can bring out carnage.
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WizardSpartan
Recruit
Ugh. Another Plasma Griffin.
Posts: 9
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Pilot name: WizardSpartan300
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League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Carnage
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Post by WizardSpartan on Nov 30, 2017 12:13:27 GMT -5
On Test Server, I have comprehensively tested the Tempest Molot build. I am buying only Tempest components and am close to one. It has enough health to finish an enemy off in close range. Prob my favorite build. I love Tempest Molot or Tempest Punisher builds, but I slightly prefer a Natty or a Lance. I think Tempests may be a bit more accurate at distance than Molots, and a single Tempest has the damage potential of 2.5 Molots (or one Punisher). Lance of course has the advantage of the shield, even though it has less damage potential. But I really like the Tempest Punisher Natty, both because she's so cheap to upgrade and also because many pilots underestimate her, so if I'm in a flock of robots I often get taken out last despite doing probably the highest damage. Seems I can out-DPS any long distance build even at ~750m with 2 Tempests, so most snipers will run for cover (instead of taking the damage like they should, and kill me when I'm reloading). Mixing Tempests and Punishers will also make it harder for targets to see when I'm reloading (if they're within 500m), because the Punishers fire much longer and the Tempests are almost ready to go again when Punishers start reloading. The Leo of course has the advantage of more HP and a bit more speed. Still, if you build that Tempest Leo, either try it the Tempest a Lance or get a second Tempest and try the Natty After doing calculations, Leo has 5.5 Molots of power and Natasha has 7 Molots of power. For only 1.5 Molots more, the Natasha has less health, less speed, costs more to purchase all weapons, and has a larger body size, catching more bullets. Haven’t tried the Lancelot, but that 5,000 Au purchase price is pretty high to me. I did test the Natasha some, but didn’t like how slow and vulnerable it is to counter fire. The Leo, if used strategically, can take surprise attacks from 600m builds mostly with impunity and can take out several Tempest builds before it dies with its massive health pool. I still prefer the Leo vs. Natasha. Also, I don’t like the Tempest Punisher builds. Stick with your own weapon range.
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Post by nocluevok on Nov 30, 2017 13:03:33 GMT -5
The Leo at a high level is basically dead at a high level unless you run Aphids. But the Vortex will kill it completely. Even an Aphid Leo is dead meat above Expert League, too many bots will just eat the first salvo and come kill you. Every Leo I see above master league is a gekko build. I run an MK2 lvl 11 Leo with MK2 lvl 12 punishers and a lvl 11 Thunder in Expert ll and do quite well. It's far from useless.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 30, 2017 19:28:08 GMT -5
After doing calculations, Leo has 5.5 Molots of power and Natasha has 7 Molots of power. For only 1.5 Molots more, the Natasha has less health, less speed, costs more to purchase all weapons, and has a larger body size, catching more bullets. Haven’t tried the Lancelot, but that 5,000 Au purchase price is pretty high to me. I did test the Natasha some, but didn’t like how slow and vulnerable it is to counter fire. The Leo, if used strategically, can take surprise attacks from 600m builds mostly with impunity and can take out several Tempest builds before it dies with its massive health pool. I still prefer the Leo vs. Natasha. Also, I don’t like the Tempest Punisher builds. Stick with your own weapon range. Leo is a beast with a tempest. Natty is a beast with 1 or 2 tempests. Lance is a beast with a tempest. Carnage is a beast with tempest. Tempest punT or pun is a dominant combination b/c it allows for sustained fire over multiple ranges where you are usually out-hitting opponents at each range -- 1 tempest beats most of what is on the field from 500-800. 1 tempest + 2 PunT's beats most of what is on the field from 350m - 500m. 1 tempest + 2 scourge is the same but better b/c scourge range goes to 600m and autolock is pretty brutal at all ranges. 1 tempest + 2 molots I prefer less b/c molot does not hit hard enough on most maps even though range and sequence match. Also, I use tempest as heavy cannon so what I do not want is to run out of ammo for 10 secs. For Leo, tempest-gekko is a good way to clear out snipers. For Natty - turkeyshoot build is really useful on maps where reds like to bunch up behind cover like Shenzen and Yamantau. Noricums force them out of cover and into the tempests. Meta for dealing with noricum is to charge it so it can be a lot of fun when the griff you just flushed decides to charge your tempest for 600m. Currently I run dual tempest carnage and tempest-gekko leo with 2 lances running as ancilots that I occasionally switch to tempest lance when I dump the leo.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Nov 30, 2017 19:37:54 GMT -5
Even an Aphid Leo is dead meat above Expert League, too many bots will just eat the first salvo and come kill you. Every Leo I see above master league is a gekko build. I run an MK2 lvl 11 Leo with MK2 lvl 12 punishers and a lvl 11 Thunder in Expert ll and do quite well. It's far from useless. I totally agree. 2x vs armor and 100% of the time hitting anciles. Unless you get tagged by 2 or 3 bots or dashed by a haechi, if you drop that kind of leo into a knife fight, you may not always last very long but red is going to know they have been in a fight.
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hiranine
Destrier
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Post by hiranine on Nov 30, 2017 20:52:43 GMT -5
now I am tempted to try Leo
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Post by frunobulax on Dec 1, 2017 7:26:54 GMT -5
I love Tempest Molot or Tempest Punisher builds, but I slightly prefer a Natty or a Lance. After doing calculations, Leo has 5.5 Molots of power and Natasha has 7 Molots of power. For only 1.5 Molots more, the Natasha has less health, less speed, costs more to purchase all weapons, and has a larger body size, catching more bullets. Haven’t tried the Lancelot, but that 5,000 Au purchase price is pretty high to me. I did test the Natasha some, but didn’t like how slow and vulnerable it is to counter fire. The Leo, if used strategically, can take surprise attacks from 600m builds mostly with impunity and can take out several Tempest builds before it dies with its massive health pool. I still prefer the Leo vs. Natasha. Also, I don’t like the Tempest Punisher builds. Stick with your own weapon range. Calculate again First, your damage values are wrong. A Tempest does 114.1k damage (all values at level 12), a Molot 44.8k. Thus, the Natty has a damage potential of 317.8k, while a Leo has only 248,5. That gives the Natty 28% more firepower, while the Leo has only 19% more HP. The slightly bigger frame of the Natty matters only against bullet based builds. The speed differential is 2 kph, which is almost nothing. But the upgrade cost of a Natty to level 12 is 25 million AG and 7 days, while the Leo takes 15 days and 55 million. Thus, you can get the Natty to Mk2 and enjoy 20% more HP (giving her more than the Leo) while still spending less time and silver to get the Leo to level 12 Mk1. And while it is true that mixing weapon ranges is usually not a good idea, this is why I prefer Tempest Punisher: - DPS values. Adding 2 Molots on the Natty gives you the power of 2.78 Tempests, and 28k burst damage (accelerated firing) at point blank range, but only for 10 seconds. Adding 2 Punishers raises the burst damage to 32k DPS (3.18 Tempests) and the total damage potential to 435k damage in 18 seconds, compared to 318k in 12 seconds for Molots. Obviously the Punishers are less accurate, but if you get to Champion, about half the robots you'll face will have Anciles. And a Punisher has a 100% hit rate against Anciles from 400m.
- And now the real question is: How often do you use the build in which situations? On Canyon and Yama I'd prefer the Tempest Molot build, sure. But I ran the Tempest Natty for over a month now, and found that situations where I can maintain over 500m distance are the exception and not the norm. And I also use her a lot to defend a beacon, especially if the beacon is attacked by an Orkan build and I know the red just emptied his clip. Thus, the additional DPS at point blank range come in very handy in these situations.
- Finally, I found that Tempests really work best from 400-500m. I'd have to run some tests to give you better numbers, but it really wreaks havoc at 400m while it does much less damage from 700m-800m, because of bullet spread and also a moving target can avoid bullets much better from long distances. My rough estimate would be that Tempests do about 3 times as much damage from 400m than they do from 750m. So I prefer to get to 400m-500m anyway, where Punishers work nicely (unless I'm up against a RDB where I try to stay at 600).
Having said this, the Tempests are the main weapons in both builds, so basically any weapon with ~500m range or more will work with Tempests.
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Post by frunobulax on Dec 1, 2017 7:40:59 GMT -5
I run an MK2 lvl 11 Leo with MK2 lvl 12 punishers and a lvl 11 Thunder in Expert ll and do quite well. It's far from useless. I totally agree. 2x vs armor and 100% of the time hitting anciles. Unless you get tagged by 2 or 3 bots or dashed by a haechi, if you drop that kind of leo into a knife fight, you may not always last very long but red is going to know they have been in a fight. I'd say that all heavy robots can be run successfully in Diamond/Expert, with the possible exception of the Raijin. Yes, a Lance is better than a Leo (comparing tank to tank), but not by a wide margin. But while a multitude of builds is viable in lower leagues, I really like only Thunder Punisher and Gekko builds on the Leo in higher leagues, because Plasma Leo lacks burst (players use more cover in high leagues, so burst damage becomes more valuable) and Pinata or Pin Leo lacks sustained damage. Thus, a Taran/Orkan Thunder Lance works much better than a Magnum/Pinata Thunder Leo. But dropping a Punisher build early in the match works great, because you can often choose distances more freely and most players tend to drop their Ancile builds early in the match, and you have that great anti-Ancile potential of the Punishers.
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Post by cmdrperalta on Dec 1, 2017 8:40:52 GMT -5
I totally agree. 2x vs armor and 100% of the time hitting anciles. Unless you get tagged by 2 or 3 bots or dashed by a haechi, if you drop that kind of leo into a knife fight, you may not always last very long but red is going to know they have been in a fight. I'd say that all heavy robots can be run successfully in Diamond/Expert, with the possible exception of the Raijin. Yes, a Lance is better than a Leo (comparing tank to tank), but not by a wide margin. But while a multitude of builds is viable in lower leagues, I really like only Thunder Punisher and Gekko builds on the Leo in higher leagues, because Plasma Leo lacks burst (players use more cover in high leagues, so burst damage becomes more valuable) and Pinata or Pin Leo lacks sustained damage. Thus, a Taran/Orkan Thunder Lance works much better than a Magnum/Pinata Thunder Leo. But dropping a Punisher build early in the match works great, because you can often choose distances more freely and most players tend to drop their Ancile builds early in the match, and you have that great anti-Ancile potential of the Punishers. I reached same conclusion as you as well. I run tempest-gekko leo to clear out treb snipers b4 I bring out carnage. I agree that a thunder-pun leo can bring some pain at any level. Situationally (for non-whales), sometimes it is nice to have a hammer w/out sacrificing a lance. Serves kinda the same function as a pun-griff.
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Post by Bui Dui on Dec 1, 2017 8:55:26 GMT -5
I totally agree. 2x vs armor and 100% of the time hitting anciles. Unless you get tagged by 2 or 3 bots or dashed by a haechi, if you drop that kind of leo into a knife fight, you may not always last very long but red is going to know they have been in a fight. I'd say that all heavy robots can be run successfully in Diamond/Expert, with the possible exception of the Raijin. Yes, a Lance is better than a Leo (comparing tank to tank), but not by a wide margin. But while a multitude of builds is viable in lower leagues, I really like only Thunder Punisher and Gekko builds on the Leo in higher leagues, because Plasma Leo lacks burst (players use more cover in high leagues, so burst damage becomes more valuable) and Pinata or Pin Leo lacks sustained damage. Thus, a Taran/Orkan Thunder Lance works much better than a Magnum/Pinata Thunder Leo. But dropping a Punisher build early in the match works great, because you can often choose distances more freely and most players tend to drop their Ancile builds early in the match, and you have that great anti-Ancile potential of the Punishers. Why is Raijin an exception?
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Post by frunobulax on Dec 1, 2017 9:13:36 GMT -5
Two reasons combine for the problem.
First, mobility. It obstructs teammates immensely (a fact that few Raijin pilots realize), it gets stuck a lot, and to use it's shield it must go to bastion mode where it can't move. And a robot that can't move is inefficient. Any rocket build can hide, reload, appear and fire, and hide again from a reasonably close distance (Thunders do limited damage from 250m).
Second, what would you put on it? Among heavy weapons, there is no really good close range weapon except the Thunder. But you have to get really close with Thunders, and I find it super easy to avoid Thunder Raijins because they lack the mobility to get close. The only alternative is Zeus/Trident and sniper weapons. But for that, it is either underpowered if not in bastion mode (Gekko Leo is the better sniper and Natasha/Fury are better midrangers) or stationary, hence easy to avoid.
Plus, it's super slow to upgrade (though cheap as far as silver is concerned).
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Post by cmdrperalta on Dec 1, 2017 9:21:55 GMT -5
Two reasons combine for the problem. First, mobility. It obstructs teammates immensely (a fact that few Raijin pilots realize), it gets stuck a lot, and to use it's shield it must go to bastion mode where it can't move. And a robot that can't move is inefficient. Any rocket build can hide, reload, appear and fire, and hide again from a reasonably close distance (Thunders do limited damage from 250m). Second, what would you put on it? Among heavy weapons, there is no really good close range weapon except the Thunder. But you have to get really close with Thunders, and I find it super easy to avoid Thunder Raijins because they lack the mobility to get close. The only alternative is Zeus/Trident and sniper weapons. But for that, it is either underpowered if not in bastion mode (Gekko Leo is the better sniper and Natasha/Fury are better midrangers) or stationary, hence easy to avoid. Plus, it's super slow to upgrade (though cheap as far as silver is concerned). After testing it with various setups, I never run Raijin for the reasons you describe but I disagree that they are only good with Thunders. They are better with tempest than Thunder, and Zeus is also viable, IMO. I like having them as allies on blue on large fields when I have a tempest carnage or similar long range bot. They do massive damage in bastion -- basically same as a Fury -- and you can use them like a wall while providing them with ancile protection with tempest fire support. Anyway, I am seeing a few more of them in D1/E3 lately, I think b/c the second hangar makes them more viable b/c you don't need to put them on all maps.
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Post by Bui Dui on Dec 1, 2017 10:28:26 GMT -5
Two reasons combine for the problem. First, mobility. It obstructs teammates immensely (a fact that few Raijin pilots realize), it gets stuck a lot, and to use it's shield it must go to bastion mode where it can't move. And a robot that can't move is inefficient. Any rocket build can hide, reload, appear and fire, and hide again from a reasonably close distance (Thunders do limited damage from 250m). Second, what would you put on it? Among heavy weapons, there is no really good close range weapon except the Thunder. But you have to get really close with Thunders, and I find it super easy to avoid Thunder Raijins because they lack the mobility to get close. The only alternative is Zeus/Trident and sniper weapons. But for that, it is either underpowered if not in bastion mode (Gekko Leo is the better sniper and Natasha/Fury are better midrangers) or stationary, hence easy to avoid. Plus, it's super slow to upgrade (though cheap as far as silver is concerned). I have to disagree with you completely. I even think you haven't tried one for yourself for more than a couple of rounds, if at all, because what you say is the opposite of what i experience as a Raijin pilot and what I am capable of doing with it. Mobility is it's biggest advantage, being able to crawl almost vertical spaces makes it like no other bot. I imagine that most of times you see it stuck it is not, but it's crawling over the object, because you have to put its legs on the right angle, which takes some seconds to manage. On moon map I can get to first beacon by climbing over the wall faster than some small bots by going around it. Also, i can attack reds from sides that they are not aware of. Canyon and moon are perfect maps for that, as i can get over almost all obstacles there, all walls, and this makes it good for both attacking and defending. These are the times i wish i had thunders on it instead of other weapons, as I can get close (around 150m) to a red much easier than in other bots, and reds don't even notice me. I can hide behind comers ( and not only corners) others can't, e.g. Yamantau bridge roof, where i'm usually not on it, but on the side of it. 99% of time i'm successful at reaching enemy beacon on the far side, if i intend to do that. Raijin made me like that map for the first time. As for the inability to move in bastion mode, if your not using sustain damage weapons (e.g.,tempest), it isn't a problem at all. I used to put tridents on it and i went on bastion mode only for a moment before firing or under heavy fire (which it usually survives because of the large health pool), rest of time i'm staying mobile. Also, i think it's one of not so many bots that is capable of successfully using all heavy weapons. It was a little underpowered before bastion mode damage buff, but that was only in theory - those charts with dmg per second, overall dmg etc. don't correspond what you really do in a battle. After the buff in TDM mode it was my biggest damage dealer, had my first over a million running only Raijin there (around 1150, if i remember correctly), levels for it and it's tridents were 10. Also, it was in expert league, so it wasn't seal clubbing of any kind. I would choose a Raijin over Leo or Natasha anytime. I recommend you to learn to pilot one for yourself, you'll be surprised how well it works.
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WizardSpartan
Recruit
Ugh. Another Plasma Griffin.
Posts: 9
Karma: 0
Pilot name: WizardSpartan300
Platform: Android
Clan: NutsBoltsBullets
League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Carnage
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Post by WizardSpartan on Dec 1, 2017 11:35:46 GMT -5
After doing calculations, Leo has 5.5 Molots of power and Natasha has 7 Molots of power. For only 1.5 Molots more, the Natasha has less health, less speed, costs more to purchase all weapons, and has a larger body size, catching more bullets. Haven’t tried the Lancelot, but that 5,000 Au purchase price is pretty high to me. I did test the Natasha some, but didn’t like how slow and vulnerable it is to counter fire. The Leo, if used strategically, can take surprise attacks from 600m builds mostly with impunity and can take out several Tempest builds before it dies with its massive health pool. I still prefer the Leo vs. Natasha. Also, I don’t like the Tempest Punisher builds. Stick with your own weapon range. Calculate again First, your damage values are wrong. A Tempest does 114.1k damage (all values at level 12), a Molot 44.8k. Thus, the Natty has a damage potential of 317.8k, while a Leo has only 248,5. That gives the Natty 28% more firepower, while the Leo has only 19% more HP. The slightly bigger frame of the Natty matters only against bullet based builds. The speed differential is 2 kph, which is almost nothing. But the upgrade cost of a Natty to level 12 is 25 million AG and 7 days, while the Leo takes 15 days and 55 million. Thus, you can get the Natty to Mk2 and enjoy 20% more HP (giving her more than the Leo) while still spending less time and silver to get the Leo to level 12 Mk1. And while it is true that mixing weapon ranges is usually not a good idea, this is why I prefer Tempest Punisher: - DPS values. Adding 2 Molots on the Natty gives you the power of 2.78 Tempests, and 28k burst damage (accelerated firing) at point blank range, but only for 10 seconds. Adding 2 Punishers raises the burst damage to 32k DPS (3.18 Tempests) and the total damage potential to 435k damage in 18 seconds, compared to 318k in 12 seconds for Molots. Obviously the Punishers are less accurate, but if you get to Champion, about half the robots you'll face will have Anciles. And a Punisher has a 100% hit rate against Anciles from 400m.
- And now the real question is: How often do you use the build in which situations? On Canyon and Yama I'd prefer the Tempest Molot build, sure. But I ran the Tempest Natty for over a month now, and found that situations where I can maintain over 500m distance are the exception and not the norm. And I also use her a lot to defend a beacon, especially if the beacon is attacked by an Orkan build and I know the red just emptied his clip. Thus, the additional DPS at point blank range come in very handy in these situations.
- Finally, I found that Tempests really work best from 400-500m. I'd have to run some tests to give you better numbers, but it really wreaks havoc at 400m while it does much less damage from 700m-800m, because of bullet spread and also a moving target can avoid bullets much better from long distances. My rough estimate would be that Tempests do about 3 times as much damage from 400m than they do from 750m. So I prefer to get to 400m-500m anyway, where Punishers work nicely (unless I'm up against a RDB where I try to stay at 600).
Having said this, the Tempests are the main weapons in both builds, so basically any weapon with ~500m range or more will work with Tempests. One Lv. 12 Molot Bullet: 610 damage. One Lv. 12 Molot T Bullet: 1,070 damage. One Lv. 12 Tempest Bullet: 1,710 damage. Clip Size of Molot, Molot T, and Tempest: 70 Rate of Fire of Molot, Molot T, and Tempest: 4.2 (6.3 accelerated) Per bullet, a Natasha does: 4,640 damage. Per bullet, a Leo does: 2,930 damage. That's a difference of 1,710 damage. The Natasha does ~1.7x the amount of damage. My calculations were off. The damage difference is significant. In terms of the Punishers v. Molots, though, of course the Punishers do more. They are designed to do more damage for more risk. (Closer range increases chances of retaliation). What I look for is a long-range, out of range of midrange rockets and midrange lightning. It is a counter to midrangers and can keep snipers in hiding. If I add Punishers, then to use all my weapons, I must enter the midrange danger zone. If you want it as a 400m face melter that can still do well on longer range maps, then yeah, the Tempest is a better choice than a Thunder. I want mine to annoy the heck out of everybody, keeping them in cover where they would have to walk 200+ meters (depends on the build) to take me down. From 400m, a DB Griffin can hide until it's reloaded, and then jump on your fat Natasha. Overall, good point though, and it seems to be good for your purpose.
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Post by nocluevok on Dec 3, 2017 7:24:55 GMT -5
I run an MK2 lvl 11 Leo with MK2 lvl 12 punishers and a lvl 11 Thunder in Expert ll and do quite well. It's far from useless. I totally agree. 2x vs armor and 100% of the time hitting anciles. Unless you get tagged by 2 or 3 bots or dashed by a haechi, if you drop that kind of leo into a knife fight, you may not always last very long but red is going to know they have been in a fight. Can't wait to get my Mk2 Leo maxed... 271k hit points. I generally use him as a clean-up hitter later in a match. I can survive an ancilot's full taran shot and shred him during his reload...if he lives that long. ? Against Kbots, it depends on how overconfident the pilot is. I don't have an MK2 Bot warning sign painted on my hull.
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peterpete
Destrier
give me gold lol
Posts: 104
Karma: 17
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Post by peterpete on Dec 4, 2017 11:21:57 GMT -5
Hi fury I use a Leo it is good with the right setup skill and patience but very vuneble to small bots. Because of its size a small bot can easily sneak up and lay fire on Leo. The problem is Leo can not target that small brat cause it's soo close its best to use Leo as a sniper because it does great long range. Be safe fury happy xmas to you and your family
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