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Post by bronzeknee on Jun 10, 2017 16:14:20 GMT -5
I love War Robots. It is an excellent game with intuitive controls, quality matchmaking that gets you into fair games quick, a great variety of Robots and Weapons, and it rewards good decision making, both in matches and in the hanger. It takes me back to the days of my youth when I played MechWarrior with friends for endless hours. But I've only spent 10 bucks on it (I bought both starter packs) because the game design decisions being made trouble me, especially the Dash Robots. As game developer, I think the best way for me to convey why I am troubled with the game design decisions is to compare what Pixonic says they are trying to do with what they are actually doing.
Dash Robots pay for their agility with lower durability?
Let’s take a quick look at each of the Dash Robots keeping in mind this claim made by Pixonic…
“These beasts can avoid any fire with relatively short, yet quick side-dashes. Of course they have to pay for their agility with lower durability…”
Dash MkI
I don’t want to spend too much time analyzing the Dash MkI Dash Robot because it is essentially a Rogatka with Dash instead of Jump. Because Dash has a significantly lower cooldown, it makes the Mk1 much faster, at the cost of not being able to jump over terrain. However, both Robots don’t offer enough firepower or durability to make them viable at higher levels.
Dash MkII
The Dash MkII is a different story, it won’t just be viable, it will be meta changing. It has 3 medium hardpoints, giving it similar firepower to a Rhino or Griffin, and equal firepower to a Fujin. However, it is much faster and more mobile than those Robots, with a higher move speed of 45 km/h and the Dash ability. It is even more mobile than the Carnage that runs at 40 km/h and has Rush.
But then, there is the durability, and Dash Robots are supposed to pay for that extra mobility with reduced durability… so how durable is it? It has 150k armor, and an Ancile Shield. For comparison, the Carnage has 114k armor and an Ancile Shield, the Griffin has 158k armor, the Fujin has 122k armor and an Ancile Shield. Unless it is facing energy weapons (in which case it is the 2nd most durable of the above mentioned Robots only losing to the Griffin that has 8k extra armor) the MkII is more durable than all of those Robots, with similar weaponry, and far greater mobility.
How does this Robot pay for its agility with lower durability?
Dash MkIII
The Dash MkIII is also going to be a meta changing Robot. With three Medium hardpoints, it again has similar firepower to a Rhino or Griffin, and equal firepower to a Fujin.
But it also has the same speed of a Fujin and Carnage, 40km/h, with Dash giving it a mobility edge to both.
So you might think it probably has a bit less armor than a Rhino or Lancelot right, ~165k? But it has more than those Robots, ~20k more! This means it has the third highest armor of any Robot in the game, to go with the best mobility of any heavy Robot in the game. And not only does it have 190k in armor, it has a built in shield!
And I keep hearing that rockets are going to counter the MkIII. But if you play with the MkIII on the test server, you’ll note how easy it is Dash away from people firing rockets at you, the same way Griffin can dodge rockets with jump. And Dash has a lower cooldown than the Griffin’s Jump, and the MkIII naturally absorbs more rockets than Griffin, Rhino or Lancelot anyway with it’s base armor. This Robot is going to be exceptionally difficult to kill if played skillfully, especially since Dash Robots are so fast they will dictate the range of engagements.
So is all of this balanced out by the fact it doesn’t have a heavy slot? I don’t think so. Again, it has similar firepower to a Rhino or Griffin (which have plenty of firepower). And the location of the hard points will make this Robot the best corner shooter in the game. This is going to be the Robot to have.
So how does this Robot pay for its agility with lower durability?
Unless I am missing something, Pixonic missed the mark. These Robots don’t trade any durability for their increased mobility. If anything, they gain durability and mobility compared to similar Robots. And Pixonic made it seem so easy to see just the opposite "of course they have to pay for their agility with lower durability…"
This isn’t good game design. New Robots should add new choice to the meta, not dominate the meta so much that it reduces choice and destroys variety, like the Britbots did initially. We don’t gain a new Robot at the top when one is introduced that makes others obsolete. Maybe this is why I don’t recommend upgrading anything past level 6 to my friends who play casually, because hanging in Silver gives you variety of gameplay.
Good game design carefully adds Robots to the game to fill new roles and provide new gameplay opportunities, not simply replace what we have with something else superior in nearly every way.
Recommendations:
MkII – Remove the Ancile Shield or remove 40k armor.
MkIII – Remove 5 km/h and 20k armor.
Dash – Change cooldowns to 5/15/25 for each Robot respectively. Remove the ability to Dash twice in succession.
Scourge counters Dash Robots?
I find it interesting that Pixonic believes the Scourge will be a counter to the Dash Robots, because it could very well end up being the best weapon the Dash Robots have access to for two reasons:
1 - The Scourge is a medium weapon and the Dash Robots have only medium hardpoints. In fact, the Mk2 and Mk3 have the most medium hard points (tied with the Fujin of course) in the game, meaning they can stack them more effectively than any other Robot.
2 - The Scourge does more damage the closer it is to the target. So it will be most useful on Robots than can control distances. And who can control distances better than any other Robot? The Dash Robots.
It isn't hard to imagine a meta where Dash Robots are stacked with 3 Scourges and just blitz enemy robots with the Dash ability so they can engage at point blank range. Depending on the balance of the Scourge, anything with less Scourges (which is every Robot saved the Fujin and Dash Robots) could be at a disadvantage at close range if the damage exponentially increases based on range. Pixonic has to be careful how they balance this weapon. It can't be exponentially stronger based on range because the Dash Robots and their extreme mobility will dictate the range of engagements and then the Scourge will be the opposite of a counter to the Dash Robots.
I think it would be a good idea to make the Scourge a light weapon. Doing so would not only mean that the Dash Robots couldn't stack it but it would also help the Griffin, Galahad and even Rhino counter the Dash Robots. It might also breathe a bit of life back into the Leo.
Recommendation: Make the Scourge a Light Weapon.
Beacon Rush to help Slow Robots?
At the top tier, the Dash Robots will provide massive mobility without the normal drawbacks of reduced durability and firepower. But mobility isn't just for dodging rockets and getting in and out of cover in a firefight, it is also used to move across the map to capture beacons. Thus, slow Robots that take time walking across large maps might not have a role in the upcoming meta (save snipers), because they don't have significantly better firepower or durability than the Dash Robots.
In order to make sure Robots like the Lancelot still have a role, Pixonic is planning a game mode that allows Robots to respawn at any beacon their team controls. Thus, the mobility advantage the Dash Robots have when it comes to moving across the map to get into the fight is nullified, while their mobility advantage in battle remains.
While this sounds good, it is destined to fail because of how beacons normally change hands. Pixonic used Yamantu as their example in the pictures, and that map is the perfect example of why the game mode won't work:
Think about what happens when one team takes the center beacon on Yamantu. It can be difficult for the other team to advance on the beacon due to being exposed to support and sniper fire from the two bridges and from the beacon platform itself. It normally changes hands because the support and snipers of one team wear down anyone on the beacon platform and push back opposing supports on the bridges before knifers charge in and take the beacon.
But now imagine if the defenders of the beacon could respawn at the beacon. Assuming one team got some control on the bridges so their knifers don’t take withering fire when approaching the beacon, their knifers would kill the defenders at the beacon… only for them to respawn in fresh robots at the beacon. It will be exceedingly difficult to take that center beacon on Yamantu once one team has it. Other maps will provide the same dilemma, to different degrees.
Now perhaps Pixonic doesn’t allow a respawn when an enemy Robot is nearby (which will inevitably happen if Pixonic doesn’t release it like this). While that will make it much better, it still will mean that snipers and supports who whittle down bots at the center beacon will be faced with fresh Robots respawning there. And smart players will abuse this. They might wear down a knifer from a distance with a support bot, then immediately select a different robot to finish off the knifer when it gets into close range. Also smart players might select a different Robot to defend a beacon half way across the map.
The new game mode is going to lead to a lot of snowball games, where one side gets an advantage and runs the other side into the ground. The ability to spawn anywhere you control radically changes the game.
Business Model?
More and more, these game design decisions are slowly moving War Robots away from Mech Warrior, and toward games like Team Fortress and Overwatch. Ever increasing weapon damage to the point where Robots are more easily killed in only volley, faster move speeds, and abilities that give massive mobility those are not the hallmarks of a Mech game... those are what we see in FPS games.
I’d like to spend more money on War Robots, but it feels like Pixonic wants to release Robots with ever increasing power to entice people to buy them with cash in order to compete at a highest levels, rather than release Robots that are fun to play and add to the game. This is also evidenced by the ridiculous special offers. $75.00 for a Taran’s and Magnum? And that is 25% off? It feels like a going out of business sale where the owners hope to stiff some fools before they close shop for good, not a stable business model that earns repeat business.
Is Pixonic that afraid of Battle Titans? Because good game design decisions that meaningfully add to the meta will keep players playing War Robots.
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Post by blackhawk2002 on Jun 10, 2017 17:18:09 GMT -5
That was some excellent analysis and thoughtful insight, can anyone validate the general numbers being given here? As a casual player this sounds bad for me, as I highly doubt I will be able to afford any of these new bots. Which would most likely mean my playing days are over soon as my ability to compete will be seriously diminished. It's bad enough currently with how the WW bots are being introduced via the new currency. I wonder if the new Dash bots will follow the same pattern?
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Post by T34 on Jun 10, 2017 18:27:16 GMT -5
Excellent analysis indeed. The final relese states will indeed be very interesting and will potentially have meta chnaging effects
two points that the i cant comprehamd why it was done by pix were very well expressed above and agree with
1. Weapon strength - weapons will be too powerful for the bots health. Look what happened during the current missile buff. Gary and gala got a huge nerfing. If the dashes will withstand this barrage the meta will be dominated by KF dashes. Currently mid range is the place to be. So many times i saw a griff with tulis in the canyon popping away for the entire match from 500m. The other maps have similar happening.
2. Game longevity including if one should or shouldnt spend on this game.
This game has a good potential. I hope pix will get it right. Really do! Currently there is a big "?" For me in this respect. longevity and firesales are a concern.
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solarflare87
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Post by solarflare87 on Jun 10, 2017 18:46:24 GMT -5
Making the Scourge a light weapon is one of the best ideas I've heard with regards to the new development. That would seriously move things in such a positive direction.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 10, 2017 18:55:59 GMT -5
Maybe your right.
I think that the dash bots will be FOTM for a bit, and we will see tons of them and they will dominate for a long period.
However, I don't think things are as dire as you predict.
I suspect that dashes will end up equipped with lots of Tulus, and become more of a counter to missiles than the close range brawler that your think they will be. I also think that they will drive other players to bring more Zeus's to the field as a counter.
I also think that dashes that aren't fit for range, will bring all the galahads back out, as they are something of a natural counter.
----------------------------
The one thing your analysis doesn't count for is the impact these changes will have to collaboration between teammates (and full squads). I think these bots are the death of a lot of solo heroics we see.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jun 10, 2017 19:17:18 GMT -5
I think mobility is very underrated in many games. It helps so much defensively and offensively. These Bots are going to need some hefty nerfs and they will have a really high skill ceiling. But Pixonic never really solved the issue they created with the AncileLot, so I'm concerned they won't recognize and address the problem correctly.
I also believe that many Dash MKII's will end up with Tulus. They will use Dash to control the distance against Plasma Bots, while their Ancile makes them superior to RDB Griffins at range. All the Britbots have no chance. Trident Furies are also going to be a thing of the past, but they can load up on Zeuses. I am also concerned the Carnage Zeus won't be able to control the distances well enough versus a Plasma Dash Robot, but we'll see.
The MKIII is going to be the go to knifer on maps like the Moon, Powerplant and Dead City though. It should completely supplant the Lancelot if played correctly. The corner shooting, extra armor and incredible mobility and Dash so you can control the range is going to make it hard to beat, and I see it running Scourge or Tarans, depending on how the Scourge is balanced.
The best counter to a MKIII will likely be a MKII who can control the distance with Tulus and Dash; the ancile will give the MKII the edge if the MKIII runs Tulus too. I also fear RDB Griffins will be to slow to get away from the Dash MKIII, so it will have no place in the meta versus either Robot.
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Post by T34 on Jun 10, 2017 19:25:25 GMT -5
Maybe your right. I think that the dash bots will be FOTM for a bit, and we will see tons of them and they will dominate for a long period. However, I don't think things are as dire as you predict. I suspect that dashes will end up equipped with lots of Tulus, and become more of a counter to missiles than the close range brawler that your think they will be. I also think that they will drive other players to bring more Zeus's to the field as a counter. I also think that dashes that aren't fit for range, will bring all the galahads back out, as they are something of a natural counter. ---------------------------- The one thing your analysis doesn't count for is the impact these changes will have to collaboration between teammates (and full squads). I think these bots are the death of a lot of solo heroics we see. It is close to dire at least. I played around on the test serve with the dashes and with misiles they went through brit bots like hot knife through butter. Something has to change. Even today why wpuld u buy a gala or a gary. If a 3 slot bronze guy would ask what to buy/do currently that is cost effective id say 4th slot 2 tulu griffs, 1 plasma griff and one with orks. 2400 gold and it will go a long way. I was thinking along the way u are with the zeuses. Ran diff combos on the test server and i found the zeus carnage very usefull and it performed very well. But that means zapping lfies from 600m all game long. Generally 2 carnies were enough for each game. Consistently in the top 3 for scoring. Dash bots could be devestating and going back to pixs greadiness and milking people id reckon they will be heavily nerfed when sales start dropping. So all expediture for a very small benefit. Back to tulu griffs or something. |
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Post by MCYL on Jun 10, 2017 19:41:42 GMT -5
I'm surprised that the Dash bits will be made so strong. I expected them to be faster but weaker versions of the Rog, Carnage and perhaps the Galahad with superior firepower so it would be reward high risk high gain game play. We'll have to see how they perform on release. As for beacon spawn, it can cause a lot of problems to gameplay as advancing to capture makes a lot of weapons relevant. Also I see the camping for damage crowd growing with this new game mode.
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Post by elcheapo on Jun 11, 2017 6:36:40 GMT -5
I am worried . Dont worry be happy mon
Kay Most new shiny pennies released are OP for a couple months . This helps to sell em . If they need a nerf they will be nerfed .
I only think rockets will suffer from "dashing" . The rest of the bang bangs have auto lock on.
If the Wild Bunch have taught us anything , Its going to be shamefully hard to get our hands on even one of these bots and thats assuming you are irrational enough to pay those over the moon map prices.
Even if nine tails Bot can carry the whole team with minimal skill , we will see one once every 30 battles and thats if we are very very lucky .
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Post by jckidd on Jun 11, 2017 9:07:18 GMT -5
OP, good post. ??. Scourges to light is a great idea. I do agree that the dash bots are too much, but it is a planned move to get cash. Once people have enough, they will move on ( see ancilot). Incidentally, I predicted the rise of the ancilot about 1 week after I started playing last year. The only thing that surprised me was it to so long to enter the meta.
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Post by agentorange on Jun 11, 2017 9:12:30 GMT -5
as a full time player of over two years I am finding myelf more disengaged with this game than ever before. I have a hangar full of gear I never use. I am forced to run certain setups often in multiples in order to compete against full current meta hangars. And now its going to change again with dash bots only now the obvious pricing model will put them even further out of reach. The whole dash concept is flawed. Bots five stories high instantly shifting a hundred meters or more. wrong on many levels. wait till your targeting a laggy one. memories of the chuck norris cossack return...
As a top tier player who has spent hundreds and now nothing why am I not being entertained? Where is my faction server? Custom matches might be just around the corner but what good will that be when 2/3 of my friend list has zero cups? Does Pixo think they are gonna return? Lol! We all are gonna be playing Battle Titans by the time the thumb gets removed from the dark place it currently resides...
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Hoo Flung Dung
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Post by Hoo Flung Dung on Jun 11, 2017 14:25:26 GMT -5
Very insightful post, and valid concerns. The dash bots will change the game for sure, especially adding such advanced mobility in combination with unprecedented defence and attack capabilities.
I'm not a game designer, but my problem with War Robots has always been the lack of an official backstory, and I'm not talking about the one on the wiki - no offence to the contributor. A good game backstory serves as a guide and constraint to the introduction of new game elements. For example, Mechwarrior games could never introduce crazy game initiatives unless it conformed and was understood within the context of the Mechwarrior Universe, balanced or otherwise. As a player, I often appreciate and understand the game better from getting excited about some part of the game narrative, i.e. factions, history, etc. I don't see any of this in War Robots. Although gameplay is fun and satisfying to a point, without a backstory the experience is decidedly one-dimensional. As it stands Pixonic has no constraints when introducing new material, because with the absence of a story narrative, the only narrative is the business model. Regrettably if the narrative is the business model the danger of players becoming "lost in the narrative" can have more than one outcome; "losing the plot" being one of them.
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Post by piginapoke on Jun 11, 2017 14:31:37 GMT -5
To be honest, I can't see a bot with a weapon that cannot be countered by another bot with another weapon, I feel that the idea behind the Korean bot pack is more financial then anything else. They will be the new "must have" and some are prepared to pay real money for them. If the dash bot wants to get close to a target to use the scourge, then they need to be careful not to get a face full of thunder,Tarans or scourge.
The big bot has an ecu shield at the side. Front and back remain exposed and during the dash cool down, the bots will be exposed to an attack.
There is also the new heavy bot that might or might not arrive later on.
I appreciate that some of us have paid good money for this. I know I have spent a lot plus the premium but, that was my choice. We cannot stop the developers from issuing meta changing bots just because we are cosy in the present meta. In nature evolution might mean adapting as well.
Keep calm and carry on fighting.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jun 11, 2017 14:37:49 GMT -5
piginapoke this isn't really about whether or not we can counter the new robots, because we can all play the new robots. This is more about Pixonic not meeting the goals they set. They said the Dash Robots will pay for their mobility with durability. But they gain substantial mobility and some durability compared to other Robots. Is anyone claiming otherwise?
Not only will the MKIII be far more mobile than Lancelot and be able to dodge rockets, it will take more rockets to take down even if the Dash ability is on cooldown due to having higher armor.
So there is the problem. If you've ever read Plato's Republic, perhaps the only defensible argument for justice is Doing what you say you will do. Because if you even can't do that, how can you be a just person? And Pixonic isn't even doing that, so at least from a moral and philosophical standpoint, what they are doing is indefensible.
And from a game design perspective it makes no sense either. While it will take time for the meta to adjust, a lot of Robots will become obsolete after this, that is easy to predict. The meta should evolve because of player choices and new tactics, not because the developers are releasing new tools that overshadow everything else. The presence of the Lancelot means the Leo is basically extinct, but if something is even better than a Lancelot, then we've stretched the playing field even further and so many more Robots are just going to be completely useless, and the Leo will be even worse. That isn't good game design because for every addition they make, they make another Robot extinct, effectively removing it from the game or making it a false choice (a good example of a false choice in the game is the Gepard, you should never buy a Gepard because the Gareth is better in nearly every way for basically the same price).
Imagine if League of Legends did that with newly released champions, each newly released champion was more powerful than the all previously released champions. Everyone would have play the newly released champion to be competitive at the highest tiers, and the game would die a quick death to DOTA where you have variety and can continue to play your favorite champion from 5 years ago.
So this isn't about not being calm, it is about trying to help Pixonic realize what they are doing as a fellow game designer. And whether or not they change course decides whether I spend more money on this game or if this game was just good for a spring fling.
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Post by piginapoke on Jun 11, 2017 16:01:04 GMT -5
Bronze, yours are very valid points of course. However, new tools might or might not mean a change of tactics whether by choice or not.
This is a wild guess but I think if Pixonic did not update and release new material, then we would be complaining as well. Are Pixonic miss reading what players Want? Well, yes sometimes. But you cannot give everything to everyone all the time either and sometimes you end up giving too much and people will complain anyway.
Have you approached Pixonic directly with these Concerns? I do not think that robot specs are etched in stone yet, Right? I mean, the figured you mention, those are on the test servers Right? So, they might still change.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 17:43:40 GMT -5
Hum sounding like the Wild Bunch.....hear that squish
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Post by Strayed on Jun 11, 2017 19:23:34 GMT -5
The main problem is that Pixonic doesn't own the game anymore, mail.ru does. They're the same people who are competing(attempting to, and not doing very well either) against Wargaming with Armored Warfare, so you know how good, or rather, how bad their buisness sense is.
Battle Titans is being produced by the former devs of War Robots, the ones who made the game what it was before the league mm system.
That's why I have so much anticipation for Battle Titans, because I know that it's being produced by game devs who have a true passion for their craft, not buiness men.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jun 11, 2017 19:45:48 GMT -5
Bronze, yours are very valid points of course. However, new tools might or might not mean a change of tactics whether by choice or not. This is a wild guess but I think if Pixonic did not update and release new material, then we would be complaining as well. Are Pixonic miss reading what players Want? Well, yes sometimes. But you cannot give everything to everyone all the time either and sometimes you end up giving too much and people will complain anyway. Have you approached Pixonic directly with these Concerns? I do not think that robot specs are etched in stone yet, Right? I mean, the figured you mention, those are on the test servers Right? So, they might still change. I think there will be complaining no matter what Pixonic does. But that has nothing to do with Pixonic saying one thing, and doing something very different. I did let Pixonic know about this thread via in the game reporting feature. That being said, the specs are not etched in stone at all. Those were the specs the last time I played on the test server. And one of my concerns is that people like Stew Pendous and others who Pixonic asks for opinions from told Pixonic the MkII and MkIII were too strong, and then Pixonic buffed them further (the MkII didn't use to have a Ancile, it was added after people said it was too strong). If they won't listen to them, I don't know if they will listen to me. But as I said, I tried. Going back a bit to the shield of the MkIII, Stew Pendous shows in this video how you can use the Scourge and turn the torso toward the target to block with the shield at the same time, effectively putting the shield in the front. You also get a feel for how strong the Scourge is. I really think this is going to be the knifer to have: |
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Post by T34 on Jun 11, 2017 21:28:23 GMT -5
piginapoke this isn't really about whether or not we can counter the new robots, because we can all play the new robots. This is more about Pixonic not meeting the goals they set. They said the Dash Robots will pay for their mobility with durability. But they gain substantial mobility and some durability compared to other Robots. Is anyone claiming otherwise? Not only will the MKIII be far more mobile than Lancelot and be able to dodge rockets, it will take more rockets to take down even if the Dash ability is on cooldown due to having higher armor. So there is the problem. If you've ever read Plato's Republic, perhaps the only defensible argument for justice is Doing what you say you will do. Because if you even can't do that, how can you be a just person? And Pixonic isn't even doing that, so at least from a moral and philosophical standpoint, what they are doing is indefensible. And from a game design perspective it makes no sense either. While it will take time for the meta to adjust, a lot of Robots will become obsolete after this, that is easy to predict. The meta should evolve because of player choices and new tactics, not because the developers are releasing new tools that overshadow everything else. The presence of the Lancelot means the Leo is basically extinct, but if something is even better than a Lancelot, then we've stretched the playing field even further and so many more Robots are just going to be completely useless, and the Leo will be even worse. That isn't good game design because for every addition they make, they make another Robot extinct, effectively removing it from the game or making it a false choice (a good example of a false choice in the game is the Gepard, you should never buy a Gepard because the Gareth is better in nearly every way for basically the same price). Imagine if League of Legends did that with newly released champions, each newly released champion was more powerful than the all previously released champions. Everyone would have play the newly released champion to be competitive at the highest tiers, and the game would die a quick death to DOTA where you have variety and can continue to play your favorite champion from 5 years ago. So this isn't about not being calm, it is about trying to help Pixonic realize what they are doing as a fellow game designer. And whether or not they change course decides whether I spend more money on this game or if this game was just good for a spring fling. And if Pix does release such powerful bots and weapons people will have to grab them to stay competitive or sink to a tier where their old gear is still competitive. If the speculation is correct about financial motives than the new stuff will be nerfed within months followed by the release of even more powerful new gear. If the release and nerfing cycle is too frequent (eg. Requires RM to keep up I think people will look elsewhere). What's the point in spending or grinding if one has no time to enjoy the fruits of the labour. So for me personally, bring the dashes out quick. I have enough gold. I don't like the current missile age. However, if I spend all the gold on the new gear and it becomes average within a short period time I am looking elsewhere. This is game has a great potential. I am willing to spend limited amounts of RM but not willing to throw RM out the window. |
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Post by anjian on Jun 11, 2017 22:28:30 GMT -5
After reading the article, there are some points I need to make.
1. This game is slow. Really slow. Heavy mechs move from 20kph and up, mediums from 30kph and up, lights move from 50kph and up. Complaining that this is moving from Mechwarrior to Overwatch? Mechwarrior is much faster than this. An Assault mech --- which is bigger than a Heavy mech --- moving at 48kph at Mechwarrior is slow. The faster assaults in Mechwarrior move over 64 kph. The faster heavies in the game move over 85kph. Mediums reach over 100 kph and lights go over 110kph. And those are regular speeds, not special abilities. That means you can add jump on top of that, and some mechs have something called MASC that lets them move over 150kph at the expense of HP being consumed.
When your mechs are slow, it limits the size of your map, especially when you have a short time limit. That tends to limit the play options in the map, as well as its strategic and tactical depth. One thing that is detrimental to the play experience is the travel time and length to the engagement area. During the play time, the player needs to be as engaged in as much time as possible. Distance and travel time are among the reasons why Springfield is such a hated map.
There has been complaints that the game is both sluggish and ends up as a slugfest. The end game for this needs to be deeper and more varied from just a slugfest.
2. On Tarans and Magnums. Buying them isn't the only option, though I agree its quite stupid to offer them like that. You can always obtain them free with workshop points, and there are competitive silver weapons. The game has made free silver weapons even more viable now, with buffs on Molots and Punishers, Pins and Pinatas, and Tulumbas. In the near future, ballistics will have improved performance perforating physical shields.
3. On the incoming dash robots. I think people are hungering for new content, and people will always want to get the newest and shiniest, strong or side grade. We cannot afford to have new content as downgrades, hence the inevitability of power creep. But after playing them on the test server, I would honestly feel they are not that strong and the Britbots are still formidable opponents. The physical shields on the Mark III is rather weak compared to the Britbots, and the energy shield on the Mark II isn't as strong as the Carnage or a dedicated ancille. While the dash speed is a welcome perk, its situational and limited on close in maps with a lot of obstacles that prohibit movement. Maps such as Powerplant, the new Valley and Dead City. On more open maps, dash bots remain vulnerable to midrange weapons such as the Zeus.
While the Scourge is formidable on the hands of the Dash bots, it is also formidable against them. The Zeus will also get debugged, which will make it more lethal. As I mentioned, ballistics will improve their physical shield penetration, which will be bad news for the Mark III, the Britbots, the Raijin and the Rhino. On top of that, heavy points get the new heavy Molot, the Tempest. It also appears that more heavy point weapons are being experimented. New mechs are also being experimented, like the recent heavy bot prototype that appeared in the test server.
The dash robots appears to be slated at the end of summer, which maybe the end of August or September. A few things may happen then.
Personally I get a big kick playing them in the test servers, and look forward to them in the public servers. And this is one thing--- I did enjoy them and enjoying is what this game is all about.
4. Will this make existing and silver bots obsolete? Except for the Griffin, they have been obsolete for a while, unless something is done by giving them special abilities on their own. Something that the devs might have on their minds when they hosted a game with certain community members that features Leos with dash, Cossacks with 120kph speeds, Vityaz with jumps, and so on. Should they explore these concepts or not, one thing appears certain is that the pace of the game will definitely speed up.
5. Someone mentioned that dash + tulumbas might be a thing. If there are dash robots around, tulus might be obsolete. I didn't get the best results playing rockets against them for obvious reasons. It may move the meta back to lasers, arc weapons and even ballistics.
6. Beacon rush. I kind of doubt that Pixonic will pursue this, as apparently they have dropped it from the test servers. Same with TDM. If you like or don't like what you see on the test servers, join the test and just leave your feedback.
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Post by anjian on Jun 11, 2017 23:22:21 GMT -5
The main problem is that Pixonic doesn't own the game anymore, mail.ru does. They're the same people who are competing(attempting to, and not doing very well either) against Wargaming with Armored Warfare, so you know how good, or rather, how bad their buisness sense is. Battle Titans is being produced by the former devs of War Robots, the ones who made the game what it was before the league mm system. That's why I have so much anticipation for Battle Titans, because I know that it's being produced by game devs who have a true passion for their craft, not buiness men. Let me add something about my.com. If it wasn't for my.com, Armored Warfare would not exist in the first place. Their mistake --- quite honestly --- was asking Obsidian to make AW be more like WoT rather than a more unique game. That is an obvious very corporate thing to do, kind of like Warner Bros-DC vs. Disney-Marvel. Because WoT is (was) so successful, everyone is trying to game in on that game structure, with its tiered PvP arenas. But no one imagined that this --- the WoT game model --- has gone stale. That even with refinements, copying WoT would not succeed. Maybe my.com should have checked out the failure of World of Warplanes as a warning sign. Maybe the other alternative is to diversify from the WoT model, just as Gaijin Entertainment did with War Thunder, but success is still at best 50/50 at that. And regardless, Armored Warfare, now revised, rebalanced, and is on 2.0, remains far less predatory on its users than Wargaming, which is cashing on **premium ammo** and premium tanks that are so imbalanced. Imagine if this game gives you a silver bullet --- then charges for every bullet used. Quite expensively in fact, with gold currency. This is what WoT players refer to as shooting gold. In World of Warships though, this another Wargaming product --- while there is no gold ammo, it has premium consumable camouflages, signals, and various consumables like heals, radar, AA burst fire, sonar acoustics, that give a player the edge when used. These consumables must be paid with hefty silver or with direct gold. Armored Warfare has none of that crap fortunately. And certainly I don't recall AW or my.com trying to shut down, as Wargaming tried, a YouTuber that has (with foul language) criticized Wargaming's premium tactics and its new premium tank (Wargaming has relented and apologized to their credit though, which must be said.) I play other F2P games, and this --- War Robots --- is pretty tame when you compare to the monetization tactics. As for "craft" vs. "business", we got this argument before. A good one was Mechwarrior Online, which tends to be run like a business out to keep scalping its users, and Hawken, which I will say is a pretty well crafted, nicely designed, nicely made game. MWO keeps its coffers going by selling a new mech once **per** month. Imagine if War Robots introduces a new mech EACH month. And that new mech has at least five to six variants. The prices depending on pack quite vary, but they are definitely much more than Hawken's $5 dolllar mechs and buy skins to sustain itself. So in ways, Hawken was more noble. But once the venture capital ran out, you only have this limited number of mechs, limited number of maps, and no roadmap. MWO on the other hand, still chugging along, after all these years, defying expectations that it would die, despite the small player base. Still making a new mech once a month (we expect the Mad Cat II on July and the Novacat sometime later this year, hoorah.) Not all people are happy, the game still sucks in many areas, but at least, along with incremental and sometimes monumental improvements, the game is still chugging along and those players that stayed, still has a game to play with. |
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Post by shakingrabbit on Jun 11, 2017 23:45:19 GMT -5
The more I hear, the more it becomes apparent that War Robots is becoming a completely different game.
Having more bots and weapons to choose from is great for more variety of gameplay but these new bots and concepts are out of place in this game. The dash bots look completely OP from the test server gameplay. The double dash is so fast it looks like a insta-warp. The scourge weapon looks OP, almost constant firing. The plasma Thunder is a cool concept but again, way out of character for the game.
True, you may not see these all that often if the WW bunch pricing trend carries over, but one or two of these on a team against the current meta and it's game over.
Not impressed with how the game development is going.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jun 11, 2017 23:50:52 GMT -5
After reading the article, there are some points I need to make. 1. This game is slow. Really slow. Heavy mechs move from 20kph and up, mediums from 30kph and up, lights move from 50kph and up. Complaining that this is moving from Mechwarrior to Overwatch? I did say slowly moving from Mech Warrior to Overwatch, but more importantly, I didn't make it clear that when I played Mech Warrior in my youth, it was nearly 20 years ago, not Mech Warrior Online which is significantly faster than the old game. 60 kph in Mech Warrior 2 in feels like 35 km/h in War Robots. |
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Post by Strayed on Jun 12, 2017 0:33:18 GMT -5
The main problem is that Pixonic doesn't own the game anymore, mail.ru does. They're the same people who are competing(attempting to, and not doing very well either) against Wargaming with Armored Warfare, so you know how good, or rather, how bad their buisness sense is. Battle Titans is being produced by the former devs of War Robots, the ones who made the game what it was before the league mm system. That's why I have so much anticipation for Battle Titans, because I know that it's being produced by game devs who have a true passion for their craft, not buiness men. Let me add something about my.com. If it wasn't for my.com, Armored Warfare would not exist in the first place. Their mistake --- quite honestly --- was asking Obsidian to make AW be more like WoT rather than a more unique game. That is an obvious very corporate thing to do, kind of like Warner Bros-DC vs. Disney-Marvel. Because WoT is (was) so successful, everyone is trying to game in on that game structure, with its tiered PvP arenas. But no one imagined that this --- the WoT game model --- has gone stale. That even with refinements, copying WoT would not succeed. Maybe my.com should have checked out the failure of World of Warplanes as a warning sign. Maybe the other alternative is to diversify from the WoT model, just as Gaijin Entertainment did with War Thunder, but success is still at best 50/50 at that. And regardless, Armored Warfare, now revised, rebalanced, and is on 2.0, remains far less predatory on its users than Wargaming, which is cashing on **premium ammo** and premium tanks that are so imbalanced. Imagine if this game gives you a silver bullet --- then charges for every bullet used. Quite expensively in fact, with gold currency. This is what WoT players refer to as shooting gold. In World of Warships though, this another Wargaming product --- while there is no gold ammo, it has premium consumable camouflages, signals, and various consumables like heals, radar, AA burst fire, sonar acoustics, that give a player the edge when used. These consumables must be paid with hefty silver or with direct gold. Armored Warfare has none of that crap fortunately. And certainly I don't recall AW or my.com trying to shut down, as Wargaming tried, a YouTuber that has (with foul language) criticized Wargaming's premium tactics and its new premium tank (Wargaming has relented and apologized to their credit though, which must be said.) I play other F2P games, and this --- War Robots --- is pretty tame when you compare to the monetization tactics. As for "craft" vs. "business", we got this argument before. A good one was Mechwarrior Online, which tends to be run like a business out to keep scalping its users, and Hawken, which I will say is a pretty well crafted, nicely designed, nicely made game. MWO keeps its coffers going by selling a new mech once **per** month. Imagine if War Robots introduces a new mech EACH month. And that new mech has at least five to six variants. The prices depending on pack quite vary, but they are definitely much more than Hawken's $5 dolllar mechs and buy skins to sustain itself. So in ways, Hawken was more noble. But once the venture capital ran out, you only have this limited number of mechs, limited number of maps, and no roadmap. MWO on the other hand, still chugging along, after all these years, defying expectations that it would die, despite the small player base. Still making a new mech once a month (we expect the Mad Cat II on July and the Novacat sometime later this year, hoorah.) Not all people are happy, the game still sucks in many areas, but at least, along with incremental and sometimes monumental improvements, the game is still chugging along and those players that stayed, still has a game to play with. My quote about Armored Warfare was more about my.com's buisness strategy. As you can see, they clearly failed on that front, never managing to achieve the popularity of WoT. Now about your MWO vs Hawken quote. Hawken's problem was that it never had the brand power that 「gosh darn 」 MECHWARRIOR, PART OF THE BRAND THAT INVENTED THE GENRE OF WESTERN MECHS had. Its gameplay did not have the same feel as that of other mech games either. In addition, Hawken was passed on to reloadedgames, who cared much more about the console version of the game than the PC version. And mechwarrior had very little competition in its hardcore slow paced mech sim market. Hawken meanwhile, had plenty of competition in its fast paced FPS market. And even then, there are examples to the contrary. EA's Battlefront 1, which tried to gouge customers for all their money, is now dead. Battlefield one has players quitting in droves from what I heard. In contrast, Rainbow Six Siege still has life. Planetside 2 , despite what the Salty Vets and the dev's funding tells you, is going quite stable. Planetside 1 stayed alive for more than a decade. Warframe is still going strong from what I heard as well. Minecraft earned its creator billions, although it is going through hard times due to its sale to Microsoft and the passing of its fad. Don't forget the Witcher 3 either, it was made by a bunch of slavs with low funds but high dedication and it made a ton of money. I'd type more, but it's late, so I'll continue this conversation tommorow. |
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Post by anjian on Jun 12, 2017 1:12:47 GMT -5
Walking War Robots had zero brand power, and look how far it went. This game's player base should be eclipsing that of MWO by a magnitude.
As for Hawken, have you ever played it? It maybe a lot more fast paced, but in many ways, its mechs feel more mechanical, with all sorts of articulated sounds and joint movement, than Mechwarrior Online, plus it also enjoys quite a bit of more sci-fi dystopian environments. Hawken failed long long before reloadedgames got it for the console. Even if it has much more competition in the FPS market, the FPS market is several scales much larger than the so called "hard sim" stompy robot market.
Your examples are not in the F2P market. They can afford (pretend) not to be greedy because you already paid for these games.
An F2P game is something else. A lot of people, a large majority of the player base is playing it for free, or playing for well below recuperation cost per user, and so a minority needs to fork out a disproportionate amount of cash to make up for the "free". So thus, the game must aggressively attempt to scalp the whales but also give them what its worth.
Valve's games like CS:GO and DoTA 2 can survive on a skins only economy, but these games are so big, you must have an enormous scale to live on skins alone. By far most F2P games do not. I am not sure how Warframe and Planetside are examples to the contrary; Warframe has prime access and Platinum. The Planetside games have been losing money. Back then they were losing Sony's money, and so Sony cut them and their SOE games division loose. Planetside 2 only started making money to SOE (which by then is too late) after selling "implants".
Witcher 3 made with low funds? It cost $81 million to make, and its a buy to play game. Games on the XBox and PS4 are also marketed with bucks from Microsoft and Sony, and they collect a part of it.
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Post by Tatamat on Jun 12, 2017 1:54:29 GMT -5
Good article with fair points made, only one thing missing:
Will all the values be really introduced into the game, or is it just to make more ado to heat up the market?
I've had many expectations while Molot&Punisher increased fire rate was introduced in test server. It seemed that they will simply go to 200%, which would make them great again.
Compare to corrent status: only 150% and DPS nerf.
I've just had a look at the oficial pre-introduction of Dash bots, didn't find any numbers there. That's why I assume those that you've quoted are from test server. If this is true, the whole discussion is theoretical until they are alive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 9:36:14 GMT -5
Good article with fair points made, only one thing missing: Will all the values be really introduced into the game, or is it just to make more ado to heat up the market? I've had many expectations while Molot&Punisher increased fire rate was introduced in test server. It seemed that they will simply go to 200%, which would make them great again. Compare to corrent status: only 150% and DPS nerf. I've just had a look at the oficial pre-introduction of Dash bots, didn't find any numbers there. That's why I assume those that you've quoted are from test server. If this is true, the whole discussion is theoretical until they are alive. They actually nerfed bullet weapons every "buff". Imbalanced bots get into the live game a lot easier than balanced weapons. Every TS weapon to make it to live server was blitzed to oblivion from it's initial form. Every bot to go from TS to live server actually received more buffs than not, and then were nerfed after being released. |
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solarflare87
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Post by solarflare87 on Jun 12, 2017 12:42:25 GMT -5
The more I've thought about the balance issues in the game, the more I've found myself with a bit of a diverging conclusion. Here's my conclusion: the Medium weapon slot is too powerful. Tridents are a bit of an anomaly, but on the whole, all "op" setups lean on meduim weapons for their op-ness. Imagine if Tulumbases only had 6 missiles, if Hydras got a slight damage reduction and flew a bit more like Spirals, if Tarans reloaded just a bit slower... and the Scourge was a light weapon, lol. The problem with the Dashes isn't necessarily their speed or health or firepower, it's all 3 combined, as we well know. But nerfing the Dashes doesn't fix the other imbalances, whereas fixing the Medium hard point would level out Lancelots, Griffins, Galahads, ect...
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Post by agentorange on Jun 12, 2017 13:39:09 GMT -5
Some great posts describing other games and the monitization methods used. But bottom line concerning War Robots is they are failing the veteran users with the type of content that keeps interest alive. Ive played this game for hours daily for two years straight and they are finally losing me. I will list what I miss and what I am getting elsewhere...
NO TEAM- My friends have left or are losing interest. Current clans have no interest in my few hundred cup play levels.
NO UPGRADES- I have no reason to upgrade any of my unleveled gear due to such a narrow meta. 3/4 of my hangar does not belong on the current battlefield.
NO MODS- No way to personalize or customize anything. Not even skins. No way to build a hangar my way and be unique on the battlefield.
NO GAME MODES- Nothing. Two years and not a peep about faction. So much cool could be done with it. Light bot server. Med bot server. Classic bot server. Nope. Not even deathmatch and thats been programmed in for over 8 months.
Ill attempt to tread water while enjoying other titles. Soon BT will consume me for a time and perhaps
they will get it right. Sadly Pixo is more out of touch with player needs than ever before. Regardless of how easy on the wallet they are compared to other titles. At the highest levels this once flourishing game has little life left...
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mao
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Post by mao on Jun 12, 2017 13:55:37 GMT -5
It's quite simple. Pixonic is getting nervous about competition and disgruntled player base so they are trying to pump out as many new weapons, bots, and maps as possible. However, by rushing everything Pixonic is producing poorer quality work which leaves us with underdeveloped, underplanned, and unbalanced material. I've read this somewhere else and I totally agree; the new Dash bots are completely out of place with their stupid anime influence. I also hate the actual dashing animation, it looks lazy, awful, and destroys any sense of realism this game had.
Pixonic is basically stumbling over themselves and making a bad situation worse.
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"Kill'em all."
