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Post by Rollo Tomasi on Dec 2, 2019 19:12:28 GMT -5
There are a few situations where it beats Avengers, but not many. E.g. if you knew you’d always have DR targets at 400m, Viper wins. 5 bots where it beats avenger, and all of them vs meta bots. Does about the same as avenger vs bots with 50% damage resistance (fenrir and mender, one of which is meta worthy and the other a high priority target) and better than avenger vs 66% damage resistance (t falc is for sure meta). Ao guang is rare but if you saw one then viper wins out easily. Then there is the case of THE meta bot, leech. Makes avenger look like a dart gun when you line them up in front of a leech with viper dealing more damage but bouncing back less damage while with avenger you lose more health just to deal less damage. 3 bots on the list -where viper does better than avenger- being meta means there will be many good cases for this weapon and even while it isn't in it's prefered environment it still has about 2/3 the damage an avenger has and more accuracy so it will do fairly well. Problem is, viper is specialised while avenger is decent at everything. So DOT is not part of the Leach repulse? Hmmm. I have many Viper comps and could outfit a classic Falcon, but that is a lot of upgrade time & cost.
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Post by bayscout on Dec 2, 2019 19:34:09 GMT -5
I think the benefits of the accuracy of Viper at range compared to Avenger is being overlooked too much in this discussion. It not only is better than Avenger in these situations, it is far better. Anyhow, all I'm saying is that Avenger is not a runaway winner.
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Post by shivaswrath on Dec 2, 2019 20:06:34 GMT -5
Very good against meta in a pair. So on behemoth, Ao Jun, Raijin, etc....
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 20:43:38 GMT -5
5 bots where it beats avenger, and all of them vs meta bots. Does about the same as avenger vs bots with 50% damage resistance (fenrir and mender, one of which is meta worthy and the other a high priority target) and better than avenger vs 66% damage resistance (t falc is for sure meta). Ao guang is rare but if you saw one then viper wins out easily. Then there is the case of THE meta bot, leech. Makes avenger look like a dart gun when you line them up in front of a leech with viper dealing more damage but bouncing back less damage while with avenger you lose more health just to deal less damage. 3 bots on the list -where viper does better than avenger- being meta means there will be many good cases for this weapon and even while it isn't in it's prefered environment it still has about 2/3 the damage an avenger has and more accuracy so it will do fairly well. Problem is, viper is specialised while avenger is decent at everything. So DOT is not part of the Leach repulse? Hmmm. I have many Viper comps and could outfit a classic Falcon, but that is a lot of upgrade time & cost. no but you are technically only dealing 99,000 damage instead of 10 times that amount like you would need to deal the same damage with normal damage. If you want I will find my post on this, I have all the numbers down somewhere and it was recent so it is up to you. Also, in this meta the viper is plenty worth it so get it of you can.
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Post by mechtout on Dec 2, 2019 21:17:32 GMT -5
I like it since the whole map is full of DR bots these days
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Post by _FakeNews_ on Dec 2, 2019 21:43:54 GMT -5
Am I allowed to say both?
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Post by TheDecepticonIdeal on Dec 2, 2019 21:45:06 GMT -5
Use it on my Carnage, and I honestly like it better than Avengers. What it lacks in raw damage, imo it makes up for with higher accuracy and corrosion to counter DR bots.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 22:02:41 GMT -5
You fail to see the battle side of. While your numbers work on paper and put viper as the worse weapon on the battlefield it depends on what robot you use it on, for instance a falcon, fenrir, bulwark, leech, ao jun or greek bot may walk out into the open and return with either low or zero damage. Also there is situation to consider, we are playing a team game after all meaning you are more likely to have an enemy target another teammate rather than you. So if you take the situation in you can easily do your full damage without hardly moving from cover OR taking damage. Your paragraph here also ignores that 1, avenger and glory have low damage outside of 350m and the other 2 that you listed only have 350m range meaning their damage tapers off to zero there. 2 There is also the problem of slow projectiles from ember, and if you brought up calamity then there is lock on to worry about. Vipers long exposure matters not, so long as you pay attention to the battlefield. Also the weapons we have listed here all have problems with range while viper doesn't have one (or at least a miniscule problem) so it can hit the enemy wielder of these weapons while taking low damage. An ao jun with 2x avenger will destroy a traditionalist falcon far quicker than an au jun with 2x viper.
It's why I shelved mine. but an ao jun viper will slaughter a leech while an ao jun with avenger will suck against it. Also I don't know about "far quicker" if it will even. Edit: HA! Falcon (with just durability skills and modules, no extra resistance) does die quicker to vipers than avengers at any range! I even factored in the breath, so here are the numbers Falcon 1,245,312 HP, no healing Ao jun avengers 1,072,480 Ao jun vipers 1,156,980 So there, ha. Lol.
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Post by Robotor Affan on Dec 2, 2019 22:09:11 GMT -5
An ao jun with 2x avenger will destroy a traditionalist falcon far quicker than an au jun with 2x viper.
It's why I shelved mine. Have you met with Maxed T-Falcon with maxed heavy armor module and advance healing? I have maxed Mk2 avenger on an Ao Jun, it is very seldom to finish off a T-falcon in one go. If I can kill them, its usually low level T-Falcon.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 22:19:20 GMT -5
An ao jun with 2x avenger will destroy a traditionalist falcon far quicker than an au jun with 2x viper.
It's why I shelved mine. Have you met with Maxed T-Falcon with maxed heavy armor module and advance healing? I have maxed Mk2 avenger on an Ao Jun, it is very seldom to finish off a T-falcon in one go. If I can kill them, its usually low level T-Falcon. look at my post just above yours, same idea at the same time lol
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Post by go red on Dec 3, 2019 2:59:19 GMT -5
Im surprised no body mention pilot skills....To make avenger great you need sharp shooter and speed shooter, but viper does not have (or not need) the 2 skills. So save some gold and 2 skill slots.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 4:12:10 GMT -5
Im surprised no body mention pilot skills....To make avenger great you need sharp shooter and speed shooter, but viper does not have (or not need) the 2 skills. So save some gold and 2 skill slots. I did mention this, the viper is hittin smaller targets.
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klatuu
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Post by klatuu on Dec 3, 2019 4:34:42 GMT -5
Biggest drawback isn't the long reload. It's the distinctive & fairly loud sound effect it makes when doing so. Reminds me of the M-1 Garand's "ching".
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Post by go red on Dec 3, 2019 12:45:50 GMT -5
Im surprised no body mention pilot skills....To make avenger great you need sharp shooter and speed shooter, but viper does not have (or not need) the 2 skills. So save some gold and 2 skill slots. I did mention this, the viper is hittin smaller targets. Yes you did mention viper is hitting smaller targets, but my point is most people compare Viper with Avenger with Sharp Shooter and/or Speed Shooter, which Viper don't have (or don't need). For apple to apple comparison, I think it's more fair to compare regular Avenger with Viper, then compare enhanced Avenger with Viper again to see if it's worth to spend 2 skill slots for the Avenger... IMO Avenger is Au intensive (2500Au per + 2 Pilot skill + whatever you need to roll the right skill), Viper can be Ag only (WS).
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Post by Thunderkiss on Dec 3, 2019 13:15:03 GMT -5
An ao jun with 2x avenger will destroy a traditionalist falcon far quicker than an au jun with 2x viper.
It's why I shelved mine. Have you met with Maxed T-Falcon with maxed heavy armor module and advance healing? I have maxed Mk2 avenger on an Ao Jun, it is very seldom to finish off a T-falcon in one go. If I can kill them, its usually low level T-Falcon. I have. Which is why I said I prefer avengers.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 3, 2019 15:10:44 GMT -5
I did mention this, the viper is hittin smaller targets. Yes you did mention viper is hitting smaller targets, but my point is most people compare Viper with Avenger with Sharp Shooter and/or Speed Shooter, which Viper don't have (or don't need). For apple to apple comparison, I think it's more fair to compare regular Avenger with Viper, then compare enhanced Avenger with Viper again to see if it's worth to spend 2 skill slots for the Avenger... IMO Avenger is Au intensive (2500Au per + 2 Pilot skill + whatever you need to roll the right skill), Viper can be Ag only (WS). speed shooter isn't all that worth it, if you have the space after mechanic, roadhog, armour master and any bot specific abilities plus shot grouping then go ahead but it hasn't given me much of a noticable difference on my avenger.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 3, 2019 15:13:03 GMT -5
Have you met with Maxed T-Falcon with maxed heavy armor module and advance healing? I have maxed Mk2 avenger on an Ao Jun, it is very seldom to finish off a T-falcon in one go. If I can kill them, its usually low level T-Falcon. I have. Which is why I said I prefer avengers. but if you paid any attention to what I said then you would prefer viper, it is more accurate as well so you don't have to get very close, since the t falcons almost all use glory that is important.
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Post by RightOn on Dec 3, 2019 15:13:16 GMT -5
Yes you did mention viper is hitting smaller targets, but my point is most people compare Viper with Avenger with Sharp Shooter and/or Speed Shooter, which Viper don't have (or don't need). For apple to apple comparison, I think it's more fair to compare regular Avenger with Viper, then compare enhanced Avenger with Viper again to see if it's worth to spend 2 skill slots for the Avenger... IMO Avenger is Au intensive (2500Au per + 2 Pilot skill + whatever you need to roll the right skill), Viper can be Ag only (WS). speed shooter isn't all that worth it, if you have the space after mechanic, roadhog, armour master and any bot specific abilities plus shot grouping then go ahead but it hasn't given me much of a noticable difference on my avenger. It lowers the speed up from 3s to 1s. Maybe it isn't maxed?
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Post by Deadeye on Dec 3, 2019 15:29:52 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of comments saying that viper is bad, and many that said it was good. I personally love the weapon but who thinks otherwise? Please discuss and state why you think what you think. If you want to kill leeches. Pretty darn great. As bob said tho, otherwise I’d rather have avengers. And the sound... bad AF What are you talking about?!? The electric marshmallow ammo is terrifying! I've seen pilots do this when getting shot.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 3, 2019 15:51:40 GMT -5
speed shooter isn't all that worth it, if you have the space after mechanic, roadhog, armour master and any bot specific abilities plus shot grouping then go ahead but it hasn't given me much of a noticable difference on my avenger. It lowers the speed up from 3s to 1s. Maybe it isn't maxed? it is maxed, but it isn't exactly increasing the damage or anything, sure it helps for when I am in close quarters since I kill faster (get to sped up mode faster) but other than that it is meh. Sharp shooter is plenty worth it though, speed shooter not so much.
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Post by RightOn on Dec 3, 2019 16:37:34 GMT -5
It lowers the speed up from 3s to 1s. Maybe it isn't maxed? it is maxed, but it isn't exactly increasing the damage or anything, sure it helps for when I am in close quarters since I kill faster (get to sped up mode faster) but other than that it is meh. Sharp shooter is plenty worth it though, speed shooter not so much. Of course, it depends on the skillset of the bot. Would I put it on a Falcon? No, there's many other skills to have first. Particularly when spraying at range, I'd want the speedup. If in close encounters, 2s can be the difference between life and death. But the only bots I'm thinking of are Puni Ares, Temp Behemoth, and some legacy builds.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Dec 3, 2019 18:24:53 GMT -5
I have. Which is why I said I prefer avengers. but if you paid any attention to what I said then you would prefer viper, it is more accurate as well so you don't have to get very close, since the t falcons almost all use glory that is important. But you can't use your corrosive dragons fire at 351+. They can glory all they want, I use phase shift.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 19:40:20 GMT -5
I did mention this, the viper is hittin smaller targets. Yes you did mention viper is hitting smaller targets, but my point is most people compare Viper with Avenger with Sharp Shooter and/or Speed Shooter, which Viper don't have (or don't need). For apple to apple comparison, I think it's more fair to compare regular Avenger with Viper, then compare enhanced Avenger with Viper again to see if it's worth to spend 2 skill slots for the Avenger... IMO Avenger is Au intensive (2500Au per + 2 Pilot skill + whatever you need to roll the right skill), Viper can be Ag only (WS). Yea fair enough. I probably said it to myself at one point. Viper is more on point, narrow stream. It does have a wider spread at larger distances according to those that have tested and created charts. Avenger is lots of spread, so need skills to get a tighter cone. At the middle distance, that's the biggest question around 300 +- 50 m. It'll depend on what target size they were using, for example a Leo or smtg fat. Target is probably standing still. Phantoms in action are mostly sidestepping to avoid fire, etc. I find Viper is not fast enough to keep up at 400m+. Same with other fast meta bots. So maybe at 300-400m, the Viper is better. But at 400m+, both would be hitting almost nothing in a real life game. The speed shooter skill isn't that good, and I wouldn't get it. So i don't count this as a cost for me, but i dunno, 1s off start up time? Get Redeemers?, problem solved?.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 3, 2019 23:48:28 GMT -5
but if you paid any attention to what I said then you would prefer viper, it is more accurate as well so you don't have to get very close, since the t falcons almost all use glory that is important. But you can't use your corrosive dragons fire at 351+. They can glory all they want, I use phase shift. what I am saying is that you can zoom to 350m with the vipers, hit with the built in ember, then when you are almost out of flight time go back away so your glide takes you out to >400m, then you can stay away and deal high damage while not taking much. Plus phase shift isn't a save all, you run out of time eventually and on the ground you are gonna be slower than them so goodluck escaping.
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Post by RightOn on Dec 10, 2019 12:41:18 GMT -5
I won a second Viper in a Gold chest.
I know common sense says to build a blow Jun, but I hate the thing. I'm considering a Weyland but I don't know if it's a good idea. Tonight a Raven is finished building that I really wanted to build weapons for instead, but I might do something else. Originally I was just going to put my one viper on a Hades with shredders, and I can still do that, and keep the second Viper for Fenrir at least until I can build another glacier.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 11, 2019 0:01:18 GMT -5
I won a second Viper in a Gold chest. I know common sense says to build a blow Jun, but I hate the thing. I'm considering a Weyland but I don't know if it's a good idea. Tonight a Raven is finished building that I really wanted to build weapons for instead, but I might do something else. Originally I was just going to put my one viper on a Hades with shredders, and I can still do that, and keep the second Viper for Fenrir at least until I can build another glacier. making a bulwark (if you move both vipers) is probably best. Weyland works as well but a bully would do the best.
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Post by RightOn on Dec 11, 2019 0:07:30 GMT -5
I won a second Viper in a Gold chest. I know common sense says to build a blow Jun, but I hate the thing. I'm considering a Weyland but I don't know if it's a good idea. Tonight a Raven is finished building that I really wanted to build weapons for instead, but I might do something else. Originally I was just going to put my one viper on a Hades with shredders, and I can still do that, and keep the second Viper for Fenrir at least until I can build another glacier. making a bulwark (if you move both vipers) is probably best. Weyland works as well but a bully would do the best. I already have a lv8 bully with lv8 clams in hangar 3 I kind of like the way it is, because I'm never worried about reds getting too close. Even the phantom can't get close if I'm paying attention, so it doesn't even need guidance operator. I just started hussar #2 for Raven instead of messing with the plan. At least I'll get half of Raven done before I think of maybe making Weyland. Glacier must be close to going in the workshop since it's in gold chest, that will free up the 2 vipers. I'm not dead set on weyland, but it looks pretty tough with the DR pilot skill and true ace. I wouldn't put calamities on Weyland because it doesn't have the mobility and melee capability that Bulwark has. Weyland needs to support further back.
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Post by shivaswrath on Dec 11, 2019 9:47:06 GMT -5
Bully Viper is a strong build.... Viper Hades too. I love them both and glad I mk2’ed one of my vipers.
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Post by WattTron on Dec 11, 2019 10:42:13 GMT -5
Do you want something effective against the Leech? The DOT is what will get these squirlly opponents to receive their due.
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