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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 15:47:26 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of comments saying that viper is bad, and many that said it was good. I personally love the weapon but who thinks otherwise? Please discuss and state why you think what you think.
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Post by Ⓑⓞⓑ Ⓓⓨⓛⓐⓝ on Dec 2, 2019 15:48:16 GMT -5
Strictly worse than other options if the target doesn't have resistance.
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Post by kamikazejohnson on Dec 2, 2019 16:02:01 GMT -5
Strictly worse than other options if the target doesn't have resistance. So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares
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Post by Rollo Tomasi on Dec 2, 2019 16:05:03 GMT -5
There are a few situations where it beats Avengers, but not many. E.g. if you knew you’d always have DR targets at 400m, Viper wins.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 16:15:00 GMT -5
It’s good.
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Post by no pain 80 on Dec 2, 2019 16:23:04 GMT -5
Best heavy at the 400-450 m range. Best heavy against DR-based bots above 350 m. I run a dual viper buly. Vipers have just been upgraded to mk2 lvl4. Not my best damage dealer, tt serves its purpose as a support bot in DR heavy meta.
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Post by no pain 80 on Dec 2, 2019 16:24:30 GMT -5
Strictly worse than other options if the target doesn't have resistance. So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares and against mender at its ability phase.
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Post by no pain 80 on Dec 2, 2019 16:29:45 GMT -5
It may be considered as terrible given the facts that it takes 15 sec to unload and another 10 sec to reload; and needs range to make a difference.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 16:30:31 GMT -5
So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares and against mender at its ability phase.
Also consider retribution blowback of avenger vs viper. Viper does less dmg, so less dmg to a friendly blue or even YOU! i have it on my weyland. The healing makes it laugh off retribution dmg. Weyland viper Hard Counters lotta DR bots. Like they run away, don’t wanna fight me. At 501m+, leeches will not approach me on canyon so exclusion zone.
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Post by linearblade on Dec 2, 2019 16:51:10 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of comments saying that viper is bad, and many that said it was good. I personally love the weapon but who thinks otherwise? Please discuss and state why you think what you think. If you want to kill leeches. Pretty darn great. As bob said tho, otherwise I’d rather have avengers. And the sound... bad AF
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Post by linearblade on Dec 2, 2019 16:54:04 GMT -5
Strictly worse than other options if the target doesn't have resistance. So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares The impact / melty split is 2/3 and 1/3 In order for it to be better/ as good as against resistance, the dr needs to resistance 66% So technically it’s only better vs leech and guang. Of course there’s a lot of breakage from phase shift as well. But at least with the leech, you can force them to shift mid tether party
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:03:34 GMT -5
So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares The impact / melty split is 2/3 and 1/3 In order for it to be better/ as good as against resistance, the dr needs to resistance 66% So technically it’s only better vs leech and guang. Of course there’s a lot of breakage from phase shift as well. But at least with the leech, you can force them to shift mid tether party The damage resistance actually needs to be 50%, when there it is about the same as avenger at mid range and slightly weaker up close. 66% and higher it is better than avenger anywhere although only a decent bit when up close, but at 80% or more then viper surpasses avenger like crazy. Also, one maxed viper vs one maxed leech, no boosts to either other than levels, makes viper clearly best, taking off 2/3 of leechs health while bouncing back less damage than an avenger does (and the avenger takes off under 1/3 of a leechs health). This making viper a specialised weapon.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:17:11 GMT -5
There are a few situations where it beats Avengers, but not many. E.g. if you knew you’d always have DR targets at 400m, Viper wins. 5 bots where it beats avenger, and all of them vs meta bots. Does about the same as avenger vs bots with 50% damage resistance (fenrir and mender, one of which is meta worthy and the other a high priority target) and better than avenger vs 66% damage resistance (t falc is for sure meta). Ao guang is rare but if you saw one then viper wins out easily. Then there is the case of THE meta bot, leech. Makes avenger look like a dart gun when you line them up in front of a leech with viper dealing more damage but bouncing back less damage while with avenger you lose more health just to deal less damage. 3 bots on the list -where viper does better than avenger- being meta means there will be many good cases for this weapon and even while it isn't in it's prefered environment it still has about 2/3 the damage an avenger has and more accuracy so it will do fairly well. Problem is, viper is specialised while avenger is decent at everything.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:20:57 GMT -5
It may be considered as terrible given the facts that it takes 15 sec to unload and another 10 sec to reload; and needs range to make a difference. unload time doesn't matter if you mount it on the right thing. reload can be avoided if you are careful and know what you are doing range is fairly easy to manage but it doesn't even need range to make a difference. The point of it is the corrosion, look into that and it isn't just a glorified avenger.
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Post by reconnecting on Dec 2, 2019 17:21:51 GMT -5
Based on this thread I have decided to put my two Vipers on my Weyland. I like that its a kind of counter-Leech, counter-DR weapon. If it works out maybe I will get two more for my Tyr.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:24:21 GMT -5
Based on this thread I have decided to put my two Vipers on my Weyland. I like that its a kind of counter-Leech, counter-DR weapon. If it works out maybe I will get two more for my Tyr. 2 more of what for your tyr? viper can't go on it.
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Post by no pain 80 on Dec 2, 2019 17:27:59 GMT -5
raw cycle damage per wiki are about 150k for the three popular heavies, except the avenger and glory*: viper, redeemer and ember. Redeemer and ember make that damage in about 10 sec with 5 sec reload while viper makes that plus corrosion (about 225k) in 15 sec with 10 sec reload. it may seem as a preference, but I think what is missing in this view is the average exposure time (lets denote it as ET) of bots. There are several parameters to consider such as frequency of lockdown weapons, modules (PS, LD, AC and Last Stand), lateral distribution and frequency of physical covers. I feel like no bot exposed more than 5 sec without Last Stand is likely to survive (any other thoughts?), so I would think the effectiveness of said weapons within that so-called ET period, which are also roughly equal (75k). Shorter ET periods will favor redeemer and ember while viper will benefit from longer ET periods. * I left out these two weapons because their performances depend heavily on distance, and at 350 m are greatly reduced to 39% and 18% (not considering the shot-grouping), respectively, per wiki.
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Post by no pain 80 on Dec 2, 2019 17:34:30 GMT -5
what I am trying to say is that viper, or any said heavy, is not necessarily good or bad. It all depends on how you play them, and manage your resources. For budget hangars, all-avenger builds seem reasonable. if you can afford a bit more vipers will give you a different taste. If you can afford some more the remaining heavies will spice up your War Robots experience. I run avengers, vipers, glaciers, a redeemer and a glory in my lineup, and like every single one; each gives me a different experience.
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Post by reconnecting on Dec 2, 2019 17:38:18 GMT -5
Based on this thread I have decided to put my two Vipers on my Weyland. I like that its a kind of counter-Leech, counter-DR weapon. If it works out maybe I will get two more for my Tyr. 2 more of what for your tyr? viper can't go on it. Oops. Forgot Tyr has mediums.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:45:25 GMT -5
raw cycle damage per wiki are about 150k for the three popular heavies, except the avenger and glory*: viper, redeemer and ember. Redeemer and ember make that damage in about 10 sec with 5 sec reload while viper makes that plus corrosion (about 225k) in 15 sec with 10 sec reload. it may seem as a preference, but I think what is missing in this view is the average exposure time (lets denote it as ET) of bots. There are several parameters to consider such as frequency of lockdown weapons, modules (PS, LD, AC and Last Stand), lateral distribution and frequency of physical covers. I feel like no bot exposed more than 5 sec without Last Stand is likely to survive (any other thoughts?), so I would think the effectiveness of said weapons within that so-called ET period, which are also roughly equal (75k). Shorter ET periods will favor redeemer and ember while viper will benefit from longer ET periods. * I left out these two weapons because their performances depend heavily on distance, and at 350 m are greatly reduced to 39% and 18% (not considering the shot-grouping), respectively, per wiki. You fail to see the battle side of. While your numbers work on paper and put viper as the worse weapon on the battlefield it depends on what robot you use it on, for instance a falcon, fenrir, bulwark, leech, ao jun or greek bot may walk out into the open and return with either low or zero damage. Also there is situation to consider, we are playing a team game after all meaning you are more likely to have an enemy target another teammate rather than you. So if you take the situation in you can easily do your full damage without hardly moving from cover OR taking damage. Your paragraph here also ignores that 1, avenger and glory have low damage outside of 350m and the other 2 that you listed only have 350m range meaning their damage tapers off to zero there. 2 There is also the problem of slow projectiles from ember, and if you brought up calamity then there is lock on to worry about. Vipers long exposure matters not, so long as you pay attention to the battlefield. Also the weapons we have listed here all have problems with range while viper doesn't have one (or at least a miniscule problem) so it can hit the enemy wielder of these weapons while taking low damage.
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Post by reconnecting on Dec 2, 2019 17:51:14 GMT -5
Is the Wasp a decent weapon for Tyr? Since it's a medium version of a Viper I would think it is.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:52:40 GMT -5
what I am trying to say is that viper, or any said heavy, is not necessarily good or bad. It all depends on how you play them, and manage your resources. For budget hangars, all-avenger builds seem reasonable. if you can afford a bit more vipers will give you a different taste. If you can afford some more the remaining heavies will spice up your War Robots experience. I run avengers, vipers, glaciers, a redeemer and a glory in my lineup, and like every single one; each gives me a different experience. I agree with you here, I run an avenger, a calamity, a dragoon, a viper and 2 exodus. I also used to run 4 trebuchet, and all of these have a trade off, damage for accuracy and range, high damage and accuracy, even low damage for good range and corrosion. My point is, viper is decent in most situations and amazing in others, many say they would rather have an avenger in this situation and a glory in this situation but in reality they are missing my question, is viper a good weapon in their eyes.
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Post by no pain 80 on Dec 2, 2019 17:52:46 GMT -5
raw cycle damage per wiki are about 150k for the three popular heavies, except the avenger and glory*: viper, redeemer and ember. Redeemer and ember make that damage in about 10 sec with 5 sec reload while viper makes that plus corrosion (about 225k) in 15 sec with 10 sec reload. it may seem as a preference, but I think what is missing in this view is the average exposure time (lets denote it as ET) of bots. There are several parameters to consider such as frequency of lockdown weapons, modules (PS, LD, AC and Last Stand), lateral distribution and frequency of physical covers. I feel like no bot exposed more than 5 sec without Last Stand is likely to survive (any other thoughts?), so I would think the effectiveness of said weapons within that so-called ET period, which are also roughly equal (75k). Shorter ET periods will favor redeemer and ember while viper will benefit from longer ET periods. * I left out these two weapons because their performances depend heavily on distance, and at 350 m are greatly reduced to 39% and 18% (not considering the shot-grouping), respectively, per wiki. You fail to see the battle side of. While your numbers work on paper and put viper as the worse weapon on the battlefield it depends on what robot you use it on, for instance a falcon, fenrir, bulwark, leech, ao jun or greek bot may walk out into the open and return with either low or zero damage. Also there is situation to consider, we are playing a team game after all meaning you are more likely to have an enemy target another teammate rather than you. So if you take the situation in you can easily do your full damage without hardly moving from cover OR taking damage. Your paragraph here also ignores that 1, avenger and glory have low damage outside of 350m and the other 2 that you listed only have 350m range meaning their damage tapers off to zero there. 2 There is also the problem of slow projectiles from ember, and if you brought up calamity then there is lock on to worry about. Vipers long exposure matters not, so long as you pay attention to the battlefield. Also the weapons we have listed here all have problems with range while viper doesn't have one (or at least a miniscule problem) so it can hit the enemy wielder of these weapons while taking low damage. Goatboy, please see my entry after the one you quoted on. I agree that the numbers on papers dont mean a thing, and personal experience and playstyle, and resource management are the only factors that makes viper good or bad. I run a viper buly, and it is one build I dont think I will ever drop off of my lineup.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 17:55:42 GMT -5
Is the Wasp a decent weapon for Tyr? Since it's a medium version of a Viper I would think it is. no, wasp kinda sucks, you should do something like tasers or pulsar with either shredders or marquess. Staying at mid range is important for tyr as you get the best view of the battle field and an amazing chance to avoid enemies that you can't beat while still being close enough to push advantages to heal your teammates.
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Post by RightOn on Dec 2, 2019 17:57:30 GMT -5
Strictly worse than other options if the target doesn't have resistance. So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares Also Mender, Weyland skilled, Fujin skilled Also the only comparable weapon is Avenger, which costs 2500 Au, and that's energy vs bullets. Avenger is tier 2 though, Viper is at least tier 3, so Viper costs more to upgrade. I'm putting viper on Hades with shredders. Both energy, lockdowns will help get some viper damage in, lockdown syncs well with bubble time, 500m range is becoming the sweet spot.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Dec 2, 2019 18:21:28 GMT -5
So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares Also Mender, Weyland skilled, Fujin skilled Also the only comparable weapon is Avenger, which costs 2500 Au, and that's energy vs bullets. Avenger is tier 2 though, Viper is at least tier 3, so Viper costs more to upgrade. I'm putting viper on Hades with shredders. Both energy, lockdowns will help get some viper damage in, lockdown syncs well with bubble time, 500m range is becoming the sweet spot. Aw man you have to put viper shredders on a rayker with deathmark! "hey who wants to be locked down, corroded, not deal any damage and take extra damage all at the same time?". I tried it out and it was entertaining enough that I am gonna use it.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Dec 2, 2019 18:27:12 GMT -5
Strictly worse than other options if the target doesn't have resistance. So only good vs: Leech Ao Guang Phantom Invader Falcon/T-Falcon Fenrir Anything with active Battle Born/Adamant Guardian/Invulnerable Raider So basically most of the Meta except Ao Jun/Ares It's not that great against those bots. Many of those bots are more likely to kill you in the time it takes to empty your clip than you them.
Underwhelming by todays standards.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Dec 2, 2019 18:31:27 GMT -5
raw cycle damage per wiki are about 150k for the three popular heavies, except the avenger and glory*: viper, redeemer and ember. Redeemer and ember make that damage in about 10 sec with 5 sec reload while viper makes that plus corrosion (about 225k) in 15 sec with 10 sec reload. it may seem as a preference, but I think what is missing in this view is the average exposure time (lets denote it as ET) of bots. There are several parameters to consider such as frequency of lockdown weapons, modules (PS, LD, AC and Last Stand), lateral distribution and frequency of physical covers. I feel like no bot exposed more than 5 sec without Last Stand is likely to survive (any other thoughts?), so I would think the effectiveness of said weapons within that so-called ET period, which are also roughly equal (75k). Shorter ET periods will favor redeemer and ember while viper will benefit from longer ET periods. * I left out these two weapons because their performances depend heavily on distance, and at 350 m are greatly reduced to 39% and 18% (not considering the shot-grouping), respectively, per wiki. You fail to see the battle side of. While your numbers work on paper and put viper as the worse weapon on the battlefield it depends on what robot you use it on, for instance a falcon, fenrir, bulwark, leech, ao jun or greek bot may walk out into the open and return with either low or zero damage. Also there is situation to consider, we are playing a team game after all meaning you are more likely to have an enemy target another teammate rather than you. So if you take the situation in you can easily do your full damage without hardly moving from cover OR taking damage. Your paragraph here also ignores that 1, avenger and glory have low damage outside of 350m and the other 2 that you listed only have 350m range meaning their damage tapers off to zero there. 2 There is also the problem of slow projectiles from ember, and if you brought up calamity then there is lock on to worry about. Vipers long exposure matters not, so long as you pay attention to the battlefield. Also the weapons we have listed here all have problems with range while viper doesn't have one (or at least a miniscule problem) so it can hit the enemy wielder of these weapons while taking low damage. An ao jun with 2x avenger will destroy a traditionalist falcon far quicker than an au jun with 2x viper.
It's why I shelved mine.
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Post by NexusBlade on Dec 2, 2019 18:39:58 GMT -5
Avenger is cheaper and better in many situations, however versus Leech viper is superior, when facing Ao Juns in my Leech the viper ones are the only ones who can do any real damage, I have a viper level 1 sitting around but I already have a lvl 12 mk2 Avenger on my Fenrir, and I prefer it in most cases, so I haven't cared enough to level the viper.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 18:49:13 GMT -5
what I am trying to say is that viper, or any said heavy, is not necessarily good or bad. It all depends on how you play them, and manage your resources. For budget hangars, all-avenger builds seem reasonable. if you can afford a bit more vipers will give you a different taste. If you can afford some more the remaining heavies will spice up your War Robots experience. I run avengers, vipers, glaciers, a redeemer and a glory in my lineup, and like every single one; each gives me a different experience. Too many to quote, so i quote all above, ok. To begin, that's my experience in combat. I didn't crunch the math or look at the wiki too much. But now that makes sense with all the different types of DR bots out there. Meaning All DR bots are not the same. I didn't really pay attention to this before so... I have all the weps of heavy type category, 2x Redeemer, 2x Avengers, 1x Ember, 1x Glory, and 1x Viper that I'm still leveling so i'm not gonna opinion it yet. I think they each have their purpose, and I don't try to mix them up. Like complain it sucks cause i don't know how to use em. My quick thoughts. Redeemer - kill low HP meta bots, will always be good. Avenger - start with these if your F2P. cheap and good enough and versatile Ember - melt Tanks Glory - lockdown shottie Viper - seems to work good, real good, and "you need it" vs varying DR bots. Get ready for the invasion once leech hits WS, now. There could be some sort of bonus, but my gameplay experience doesn't concur with rollopollo. The advice is too simple, viper is better than avenger at 400m+. Even at 100-300m, the viper feels better than my avenger vs fenrir and phantoms. And this was at 1x L7 Viper vs 2x MK2 L12 Avenger. Maybe more bullets of Viper hittin, so it's the better option 99% of the time no matter the distance vs any DR bot. For Leech, you deff want to use Viper and not kill yoself with the Avengers. Like 1000%. I use Glory on my weyland, so shotty does most dmg at point blank. Phantoms like to get in yo grill, so this is a deterrent. I don't have to worry about blowback, does more dmg than avenger at this range (0 m), and locks down the phantom so they don't run circles around you. I'm guessing it does more than viper. And gives me one of the highest possible DPS when countering the shotties Phantom, so they think twice about it. Only thing better would be 2x Glory, but then the Weyland loses all its range which is not good. I don't fire my Glory when fighting Leech. Just use it to lockdown, and then let my single Viper duel the dmg. It's a strange mixed build, but it works. Glory is good vs all Tanks. Whodathunkit? Glory + Viper.
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