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Post by EatStinkyTofu on Mar 12, 2017 15:32:19 GMT -5
A clan member recently wondered if the upcoming Molot acceleration buff would make it a reasonable Ancile counter AT LONG RANGE, and they asked me to crunch the numbers... So here are the numbers and my thoughts.
Conditions: 1) All Level 10 weapons (because that's what I have) 2) Molot Griffin (because this is the best Molot platform) 3) Single Level 10 Ancile shield (78,000 hit points, 2340 point regen per second)
Scenario 1 (maximum, potential damage) Assumptions: 1) 100% Molot accuracy 2) Full Molot clip used 3) Static target and shooter
Time (seconds) Damage per bullet # Bullets Gross Damage Ancile Regen Net Damage 1 397 26 10,322 2340 7,982 2 7,982 3 7,982 4 52 20,644 18,304 5 18,304 6 18,304 6.5 26 10,322 1170 9,152 TOTAL TOTAL 88,010
This looks impressive and the total damage is more than enough to take down a Level 10 Ancile....
.....BUT, I would argue that the assumptions for maximum damage are UNrealistic because
1) Bullet spread ensures <100% accuracy at distance, although the Ancile target is large. And realistically, with Molots, you would be engaging the Ancilot at a range of >400meters. 2) It is difficult to have a sustained engagement time of 6.5 seconds, in order to use an entire clip 3) It is rare for both target and shooter to be completely static, thus further decreasing accuracy
.......SO, as an arbitrary modifier to try to account for all the variables of a dynamic engagement, I picked a FIFTY PERCENT (50%) hit rate.
Scenario 2 ("realistic" 50% hit rate) Time (seconds) Damage per bullet # Bullets Gross Damage 50% Modifier Ancile Regen Net Damage 1 397 26 10,322 5,161 2340 2,821 2 2,821 3 2,821 4 52 20,644 10,322 7,982 5 7,982 6 7,982 6.5 26 10,322 5,161 1170 3,991 TOTAL TOTAL 36,400
With the 50% modifier, I would guess that in "real life," a Molot Griff could expect to take down about 1/2 of an ancile shield per clip
For comparion (level 10): Trident Fury => 51,138 damage over 3.5-ish seconds RDB Griff => 50,904 damage over 1.6 seconds
It is arguable which is more beneficial -- the added range of molots compared to the splash radius of tridents/PIN/tulu, which ensure a higher hit rate and advantage of partially-direct fire.
BOTTOM LINE: While a Molot Griff has the potential to take down an equivalent level Ancile with a full clip, given "real life" combat situations, I am making an educated guess that it would be reasonable to expect taking away about 1/2 of an Ancile hit point pool with a full clip when engaging an Ancile at medium-long distance.
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Post by Team Alpha Strike on Mar 12, 2017 16:39:16 GMT -5
The Molot gets 100% hit at realistic combat distances to an Ancile. Realistic would be 350-650m and at those ranges, the bullet spread is not greater than plus or minus 30 meters of aiming point. You'll get the full value of your Molots off the Ancile.
After the Ancile shield is gone, that's when the accuracy drops since you are then trying to hit the actual bot.
As an Ancile shield killer, the Griffin Molot is not bad.
One thing to note is that Punishers and Thunders are faster and more efficient that Molots if your range is anything less than 500m. Both these weapons also don't require an "all in" weapons response to defeat a maxed Ancile. A pair of level 10 Thunder Carnage can zero out a maxed Ancile in 4 seconds and have shots to spare. A pair of just level 7 light Punishers zeroes out the shield in 1 salvo --- leaving your main weapons ready for body damage --- level 10 and over Punishers will eat away at the body and maintain the shield at zero too.
I use my Thunder Carnage and the Punishers on my Orkan/Punisher Griffin in the Ancile killer role and it gives these bots a full 500m range since I'm always looking for energy shields to beat down when I play. Yknow that useless feeling you have when you are in a DB setup or Aphids setup when the enemy is out of range? This doesn't happen much when you use bullet weapons and view your secondary job as an Ancile shield killer. It's always 100% damage against energy shields using bullet weapons if the target us not out of range and you aim true. This secondary job really validates the use of a Thunder Carnage - even at the Champions level - since no setup depletes an Ancile faster at the typical standoff ranges of 300/350 to 500m (above the range of an Ancilot's typical weapons).
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Post by zer00eyz on Mar 12, 2017 16:49:33 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output!
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Post by shaolinrogue on Mar 12, 2017 16:53:37 GMT -5
Single fire the thunder as you close range. Even if you don't auto fire it the Ancile recharge threshold won't have time to activate. This is an especially effective when paired with rockets to counter against Ancilots since as a bonus it's nice and big and soaks up the Thunder spread , plus, the buckshot will hit em around the edges of the shield while shredding it. The only reason to use Molots would be to gain that extra ~200m safety. At that point, you would be better off with Gekkos and standing waaaay back. If your looking to prioritize your targets with Molots you would be helping your team most by concentrating on Trident and Zeus Furies.
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Post by EatStinkyTofu on Mar 12, 2017 20:26:08 GMT -5
Agree that a Thunder is best anti-ancile weapon to use. because of the radius of ancile, you can start hitting it when the target is at 520-530m too. I was attempting to answer a specific question (e.g. Molots) and tried to compare like-to-like (e.g. Medium to long-range). I just edited the original post to try to clarify this
I admit that my annecdotal experience colors my opinion. I ran a Molot Griff in Expert II for a couple weeks and found it very ineffective against Anciles.
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Post by EatStinkyTofu on Mar 12, 2017 20:30:06 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Nope, just did it by hand. Haha. Once the question changes to what works against Anciles at all ranges, there are clearly better options at shorter ranges due to higher damage output. The idea to use punishers at a range of 400-500m is really interesting to me, and I might try that out.
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Post by shaolinrogue on Mar 13, 2017 0:35:26 GMT -5
Agree that a Thunder is best anti-ancile weapon to use. because of the radius of ancile, you can start hitting it when the target is at 520-530m too. I was attempting to answer a specific question (e.g. Molots) and tried to compare like-to-like (e.g. Medium to long-range). I just edited the original post to try to clarify this I admit that my annecdotal experience colors my opinion. I ran a Molot Griff in Expert II for a couple weeks and found it very ineffective against Anciles. Just had a Thunder Molot Leo on "Ancile Cancel" duty and it worked a treat! Also like to point out that the radius of an energy shield extends through thin cover so you can knock it down through the center on Springfield for example.
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Post by shaolinrogue on Mar 13, 2017 0:36:39 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Nope, just did it by hand. Haha. Once the question changes to what works against Anciles at all ranges, there are clearly better options at shorter ranges due to higher damage output. The idea to use punishers at a range of 400-500m is really interesting to me, and I might try that out. Just tried that on the Leo with the Thunder as well and that worked good too. And if you close in while your doing it and single fire the thunder you still have some ammo left to fight.
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Post by EatStinkyTofu on Mar 13, 2017 5:49:14 GMT -5
Punisher Griff vs Ancile
By request, here are the numbers... Now, this is worth trying!
Again, level 10 punishers and ancile
Time (seconds) Damage per bullet # Bullets Gross Damage Ancile Regen Net Damage 1 306 54 16,524 2340 14,184 2 14,184 3 14,184 4 108 33,048 30,708 5 30,708 6 30,708 6.5 54 16,524 1170 15,354 TOTAL TOTAL 150,030
The sheer potential damage output is massive, more than a DB volley! What's most intriguing to me is that if you look at ONLY the accelerated state (seconds 4-6.5), you're talking about over 105,000 damage! Even if you account for some inaccuracy, I'm pretty sure you have a good chance of taking down an Ancile just using the punishers when they're spooled up. My biggest qualm about Molots is just the time needed to inflict its damage output. 6.5 seconds is just a long time to assume you can maintain accurate fire on a target, especially at long range. In contrast, I feel like it's very possible to fully engage a target for the 3 seconds of the spool-up period for punishers. Same amount of time to unload a full DB volley. Added bonus, is you don't have to sit still for as long a period of time to accomplish your goal (take down a shield to make a target vulnerable to teammates), then you can hopefully jump to a safe location while your punishers reload. I don't have leveled punishers yet, but will give this a try, just to see accuracy against ancile at >350m range.
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Post by silvernja on Jan 12, 2018 14:10:45 GMT -5
.....trying to make visible on Tapatalk. Not searchable so making a reply I can see then will edit my post.
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Post by silvernja on Jan 12, 2018 14:33:24 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Great Idea. Active calculator. I should have the punisher available by end of day. This assumes 100percent hit rate with cycle Dps at full clip. As found on wiki
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Post by gman4hire on Jan 12, 2018 14:43:32 GMT -5
I run a leadhose griff all lvl 9 and i can safely say that it will take down an orkan ancile lance, if you time the jump right many times ive jumped sideways in on 1 as it unloads an entire salvo at nothing and 「dookie」s bricks as my punishers destroy it : ) I also have great success with a gary gust/storm at close range, simmilar to a tharnage in the way you kamikaze it.
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Post by silvernja on Jan 12, 2018 17:44:44 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Punisher. For one at level 9.
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Post by RedRaider on Jan 12, 2018 18:05:35 GMT -5
molot acceleration buff? Is it retroactive?...lol I have shelved my molots for punishers. if they get a buff then maybe I can add them in .
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Post by TheWWRNerdGuy on Jan 12, 2018 18:08:17 GMT -5
Thunder! Thunder! Thunder!
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Post by silvernja on Jan 12, 2018 18:40:26 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Punisher. For one at level 9. Added weapon Qty Against my favorite Carnage support bot.
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Post by nocluevok on Jan 12, 2018 18:52:59 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Mk2 12 punishers 564 a round Mk2 12 thunder 17.7k On a Leo it's like, Ancile? What ancile?
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Post by silvernja on Jan 12, 2018 21:01:41 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Mk2 12 punishers 564 a round Mk2 12 thunder 17.7k On a Leo it's like, Ancile? What ancile? I haven't found a chart or wiki for mk2 thunder or other weapons. Anyone know where to find this?
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Post by nocluevok on Jan 12, 2018 22:26:55 GMT -5
I listed a few if I can find the thread...
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Post by silvernja on Jan 12, 2018 22:29:32 GMT -5
I listed a few if I can find the thread... I find it odd it's not in the warbots new knowledge library
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Post by nocluevok on Jan 12, 2018 22:44:21 GMT -5
I listed a few if I can find the thread... I find it odd it's not in the warbots new knowledge library Found it and bumped the post.
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Post by silvernja on Jan 16, 2018 11:06:16 GMT -5
If you did this in excel can you drop punishers in there? Im curious to see the output! Punisher. For one at level 9. Burst dps for that initial 10 seconds. When they figure out your shooting lol.
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