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Post by alubyansky on Jun 13, 2018 7:37:17 GMT -5
A while back, in this thread, ѻﻭɼﻉ was adamant that Vortex is a strong weapon for all leagues. I'm not sure I believe him, but am intrigued by the idea. I tried to think it through, but still can't see it as a strong weapon. Can anyone with experience running this setup, successful or not, weigh in on this? As an example, let's consider the Spectre, a bot that is synergistic with Vortex: fast, descend, 4 slots. Imagine a non-squad game of equal skill players with Lvl 12 Mk1 on Moon. Everybody has a regular DIESS hangar, aside from your lonely Vortex Spectre. How do you play it, and how is it better than rival SR weapons like Storm, Orkan, and Taran? From my perspective, I see a pile of tactical disadvantages. - Total damage is not enough to kill even another Spectre reliably. 2-shot kill is still pretty good, but not a DB.
- If the enemy sees your launch, he can either quickly walk (Spectre) or dash out of the way and you get a partial hit or a miss.
- Anybody with an Ancile (Haechi) is also resistant - you have to stagger shots to pop his shield first, or wait for a blue to do it.
- 350m range is similar to Orkan -- you are in range of the enemy, or close to it, when you shoot. When you pop up with stealth, there is a chance to "catch" part of a Shocktrain blast (similar to other SR setups).
- Jumping allows you to shoot downward over obstacles, but this is true of Orkans in many situations.
- While instantaneous damage is "high", 8 second reload doesn't play well with timing of descend ability and regeneration time of Spectre.
Thoughts? |
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Post by hjn on Jun 13, 2018 8:00:45 GMT -5
I would never waste a Spectre to run Vortex; that said, I run a doc vortex. It is very situational, you need to stay behind the brawlers and help them out but you get the kills as well, as with every bot know when to retreat and when to push forward. In the mist of battle there is always someone that is unaware of you. 1v1 is a bit meh
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jun 13, 2018 8:06:06 GMT -5
I played Patton Aphids (the Nuke) a LOT, even after the DIESS invasion.
It's NOT a brawler. Nor is it, quite, a front line support bot.
It is a support build, but best just behind the line. Cover and position are everything. The difference in tactics used on the Spec from the Patton is that you have an escape route and/or a height boost for better shots. But otherwise... you are trying to hit bigger slower bots, knock down shields, catch jumping bots just as they land, etc.
The Spec can get a little more risky than the Patton, due to fast ground speed and Descend. But it's still best not to be exposed.
The Aphid family is an indirect, slightly guided, cluster of missiles. Spec allows that to be used in a way that can be utilized to it's best. The questions always come down to how you want to play... Brawl, Support, Capper, Harasser... etc. Is the Spec a bot you want to take front line power away from in order to implement fast, close range support? I'll deffo try it when 4 Vortices are ready.
In the mean time, DarkVagabond shows his Stukka Spec (2x Vortices and 2x Orks) off in this forum and is a good compromise to see how the Vortex does.
IMO, YMMV
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Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on Jun 13, 2018 10:24:22 GMT -5
I keep a Vortex Spectre in my brawl hangar, kill lots of robots, damage other robots, remove Anciles for teammates to hit with rockets, remove Anciles and destroy the robot, eliminate strategic threats that my team can’t get to in time with their bots or weapons, and sometimes to do the unexpected and murder robots at point blank. ?? In Champ League against Mk2 robots. I also use an Aphex Griff in Gold League on a separate account and do the same things. And more importantly, I have a lot of fun and laugh a lot because Vortex gameplay is epic!
If you learn to do it right, you can avoid wasting salvos 99% of the time. But, if you don’t want to develop such skills and enjoy a different type of gameplay, and just want to use easy weapons like Orkans, go for it, I won’t judge you, but don’t listen to an experienced Vortex pilot tell you how effective they are then come on and say they’re not when you haven’t taken enough time to see for yourself. And if you do take that time and don’t do well, don’t blame the Vortex, it is to do with your piloting abilities or your personal preference in gameplay. No big deal.
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Post by alubyansky on Jun 13, 2018 11:32:22 GMT -5
To summarize thus far, you all consider the Vortex to be a niche or "exotic" weapon, whose tactical use should resemble Aphid Patton, Aphid Jesse, Vortex Doc, or Stuka Griffin.
I guess that answers the tactics question, since there are guides and videos aplenty for those. If a newer player was to ask, "Should I invest in Vortexes?", the conservative answer would be to have them spend some gold (or spins) on 4 aphids. If they don't like the Nuke, then they won't like, or perform well with, the other variants. Seems fair.
My impression then is that Vortexes are the proverbial English longbows in an age of crossbows and arquebuses. Some advantages; some disadvantages. Will remain a niche weapon.
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Post by darkknight on Jun 13, 2018 12:05:03 GMT -5
In upper meta you mostly see spectre,bulg,inqy and few haeichis. The first 3 are most common, specially spectre and bulg. Now in moon map there is sweet spot from where you can hit almost any reds who are near beacon. Against bulg & inqy levelled vortex are far more deadly then you can imagine + mobility and evasion ability of spectre. Shocktrains requires LOS but for vortex unless building is too high you can curve them and still do some damage. To kill moving spectre with vortex is little tricky but rest of the bots are too slow to evade and is easy prey for vortex spectre. Worth levelling? sure as its fun setup but only if you got spectre. if you have 2x then i don't think its worth equipping on griffin as its real hard to evade when enemy closses in unlike spectre and fire power is low.
Best map for vortex spectre is powerplant, moon,valley and dead city
worst map - yama, canyon ( although if reds are agressive and brawling then with skill full play you can deal good mount of damamge0
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ANATHEMA
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Post by ANATHEMA on Jun 13, 2018 12:08:49 GMT -5
Well, you have to toss it over a wall or something. My issue with Vortex is that it so often does not hit.
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Post by ezekielcrow on Jun 13, 2018 12:47:17 GMT -5
Vortex like the aphids on jesse plays to the strengths of bots like the specter. Good foot speed and high damage potential increases the threat you can pose over a wider area of the field. Indirect fire also helps keep the specter in cover,increasing its useful life. Anyone who has played aphids knows that any challenge can easily be dealt with using a dynamic fire sequence, which also minimizes wasted salvos.
With skilled piloting, theres no excuse to not dominate your opponents.
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Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on Jun 13, 2018 13:31:45 GMT -5
Well, you have to toss it over a wall or something. My issue with Vortex is that it so often does not hit. Occasionally, like some other weapons such as Shocks, Tarans, and Orkans, no damage registers. In the case of the Vortex, there are several things: 1) In Pixonics own notes they admit there’s a bug, and by the sound of it, it’s an intentional one to keep the Vortex from being OP, which imo is stupid and an unfair way of keeping them in check. They should just lower the damage output, not create a bug that robs you of all damage even on a direct hit to an immobile target. Nonetheless, while those occasional moments can be frustrating, as they are with those other weapons, it does not happen enough to warrant not using the weapon. You just accept there’s a bug or lag or whatever, and set up to land more blows. 2) The main reasons Vortex doesn’t hit has more to do with the piloting tactics, such as poor timing, not enough elevation, wrong angle, mistaken terrain assessment, choosing targets poorly, or not using staggered shots when they’re better suited for the situation. So I’d say give it more time and explore these things so that a far greater percentage of your shots hit. 3) It is not always necessary to fire all weapons, and sometimes it is better to fire all weapons and accept that only some of the salvo will hit, because weakening targets is useful, and baiting pilots to use their stealth or dashes is an important tactic for killing them when they’re ability is spent. Bottom line, if my salvos aren’t hitting enough, I look at what I’m doing wrong and try to correct it |
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ANATHEMA
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Post by ANATHEMA on Jun 13, 2018 14:50:52 GMT -5
Well, you have to toss it over a wall or something. My issue with Vortex is that it so often does not hit. Occasionally, like some other weapons such as Shocks, Tarans, and Orkans, no damage registers. In the case of the Vortex, there are several things: 1) In Pixonics own notes they admit there’s a bug, and by the sound of it, it’s an intentional one to keep the Vortex from being OP, which imo is stupid and an unfair way of keeping them in check. They should just lower the damage output, not create a bug that robs you of all damage even on a direct hit to an immobile target. Nonetheless, while those occasional moments can be frustrating, as they are with those other weapons, it does not happen enough to warrant not using the weapon. You just accept there’s a bug or lag or whatever, and set up to land more blows. 2) The main reasons Vortex doesn’t hit has more to do with the piloting tactics, such as poor timing, not enough elevation, wrong angle, mistaken terrain assessment, choosing targets poorly, or not using staggered shots when they’re better suited for the situation. So I’d say give it more time and explore these things so that a far greater percentage of your shots hit. 3) It is not always necessary to fire all weapons, and sometimes it is better to fire all weapons and accept that only some of the salvo will hit, because weakening targets is useful, and baiting pilots to use their stealth or dashes is an important tactic for killing them when they’re ability is spent. Bottom line, if my salvos aren’t hitting enough, I look at what I’m doing wrong and try to correct it All points taken. I used it for a while—Galahad (9), Vortex (10), Aphid x 2(9). One frustration I had was that it is super efficient at eliminating a shield, but you need someone there with a damage shot. I've run the Galahad for a while in many forms, and I also found I could keep it as my only bot for a whole game. In those cases, I'd end up with extremely low damage and no kills. I also found that the rockets fire almost straight on some maps, while in other situations they'll fly over an object if you are positioned well. My issue with hitting is most surely target selection. But in a busy mess, I have issues sorting it and dash bots are good about evasive maneuvers. |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jun 13, 2018 15:01:36 GMT -5
Occasionally, like some other weapons such as Shocks, Tarans, and Orkans, no damage registers. In the case of the Vortex, there are several things: 1) In Pixonics own notes they admit there’s a bug, and by the sound of it, it’s an intentional one to keep the Vortex from being OP, which imo is stupid and an unfair way of keeping them in check. They should just lower the damage output, not create a bug that robs you of all damage even on a direct hit to an immobile target. Nonetheless, while those occasional moments can be frustrating, as they are with those other weapons, it does not happen enough to warrant not using the weapon. You just accept there’s a bug or lag or whatever, and set up to land more blows. 2) The main reasons Vortex doesn’t hit has more to do with the piloting tactics, such as poor timing, not enough elevation, wrong angle, mistaken terrain assessment, choosing targets poorly, or not using staggered shots when they’re better suited for the situation. So I’d say give it more time and explore these things so that a far greater percentage of your shots hit. 3) It is not always necessary to fire all weapons, and sometimes it is better to fire all weapons and accept that only some of the salvo will hit, because weakening targets is useful, and baiting pilots to use their stealth or dashes is an important tactic for killing them when they’re ability is spent. Bottom line, if my salvos aren’t hitting enough, I look at what I’m doing wrong and try to correct it All points taken. I used it for a while—Galahad (9), Vortex (10), Aphid x 2(9). One frustration I had was that it is super efficient at eliminating a shield, but you need someone there with a damage shot. I've run the Galahad for a while in many forms, and I also found I could keep it as my only bot for a whole game. In those cases, I'd end up with extremely low damage and no kills. I also found that the rockets fire almost straight on some maps, while in other situations they'll fly over an object if you are positioned well. My issue with hitting is most surely target selection. But in a busy mess, I have issues sorting it and dash bots are good about evasive maneuvers. I can't hit a Kumi to save my life. Even standing stock still and getting a hit the damage is almost laughable.
But I still use them. Running a fun build now... Thermite, Vortex, Aphid Golem. Even at level 8 that weapon combo rocks folks. Eventually they will get some upgrade love, but for now, they do alright in E2. |
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Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on Jun 13, 2018 15:13:51 GMT -5
All points taken. I used it for a while—Galahad (9), Vortex (10), Aphid x 2(9). One frustration I had was that it is super efficient at eliminating a shield, but you need someone there with a damage shot. I've run the Galahad for a while in many forms, and I also found I could keep it as my only bot for a whole game. In those cases, I'd end up with extremely low damage and no kills. I also found that the rockets fire almost straight on some maps, while in other situations they'll fly over an object if you are positioned well. My issue with hitting is most surely target selection. But in a busy mess, I have issues sorting it and dash bots are good about evasive maneuvers. I can't hit a Kumi to save my life. Even standing stock still and getting a hit the damage is almost laughable.
But I still use them. Running a fun build now... Thermite, Vortex, Aphid Golem. Even at level 8 that weapon combo rocks folks. Eventually they will get some upgrade love, but for now, they do alright in E2. If you stagger your shots, you are more likely to land hits. I’m not even talking about the bait the dashes then hit them when the dash is spent, I’m talking they are still and a full salvo doesn’t register damage whereas staggered shots do |
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Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on Jun 13, 2018 15:16:29 GMT -5
Occasionally, like some other weapons such as Shocks, Tarans, and Orkans, no damage registers. In the case of the Vortex, there are several things: 1) In Pixonics own notes they admit there’s a bug, and by the sound of it, it’s an intentional one to keep the Vortex from being OP, which imo is stupid and an unfair way of keeping them in check. They should just lower the damage output, not create a bug that robs you of all damage even on a direct hit to an immobile target. Nonetheless, while those occasional moments can be frustrating, as they are with those other weapons, it does not happen enough to warrant not using the weapon. You just accept there’s a bug or lag or whatever, and set up to land more blows. 2) The main reasons Vortex doesn’t hit has more to do with the piloting tactics, such as poor timing, not enough elevation, wrong angle, mistaken terrain assessment, choosing targets poorly, or not using staggered shots when they’re better suited for the situation. So I’d say give it more time and explore these things so that a far greater percentage of your shots hit. 3) It is not always necessary to fire all weapons, and sometimes it is better to fire all weapons and accept that only some of the salvo will hit, because weakening targets is useful, and baiting pilots to use their stealth or dashes is an important tactic for killing them when they’re ability is spent. Bottom line, if my salvos aren’t hitting enough, I look at what I’m doing wrong and try to correct it All points taken. I used it for a while—Galahad (9), Vortex (10), Aphid x 2(9). One frustration I had was that it is super efficient at eliminating a shield, but you need someone there with a damage shot. I've run the Galahad for a while in many forms, and I also found I could keep it as my only bot for a whole game. In those cases, I'd end up with extremely low damage and no kills. I also found that the rockets fire almost straight on some maps, while in other situations they'll fly over an object if you are positioned well. My issue with hitting is most surely target selection. But in a busy mess, I have issues sorting it and dash bots are good about evasive maneuvers. I’m not judging your choice of robot, as I myself am preparing a Scourge Spark Galahad, but one of the reasons you’re getting that low damage and difficult getting hits is that Galahad is not really a good platform for these rockets. Try it on an Aphex Griff or a Rog and take advantage of the ability to use elevation to land hits. |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jun 13, 2018 15:27:58 GMT -5
I can't hit a Kumi to save my life. Even standing stock still and getting a hit the damage is almost laughable.
But I still use them. Running a fun build now... Thermite, Vortex, Aphid Golem. Even at level 8 that weapon combo rocks folks. Eventually they will get some upgrade love, but for now, they do alright in E2. If you stagger your shots, you are more likely to land hits. Iâm not even talking about the bait the dashes then hit them when the dash is spent, Iâm talking they are still and a full salvo doesnât register damage whereas staggered shots do I have staggered them... it's prolly the fact that the Golum is not jumping... as I have heard that hitting them from above has better results...
Either way, I just ignore the lil buggers and hit 「dookie」 that matters  |
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ANATHEMA
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Post by ANATHEMA on Jun 13, 2018 15:35:43 GMT -5
All points taken. I used it for a while—Galahad (9), Vortex (10), Aphid x 2(9). One frustration I had was that it is super efficient at eliminating a shield, but you need someone there with a damage shot. I've run the Galahad for a while in many forms, and I also found I could keep it as my only bot for a whole game. In those cases, I'd end up with extremely low damage and no kills. I also found that the rockets fire almost straight on some maps, while in other situations they'll fly over an object if you are positioned well. My issue with hitting is most surely target selection. But in a busy mess, I have issues sorting it and dash bots are good about evasive maneuvers. I’m not judging your choice of robot, as I myself am preparing a Scourge Spark Galahad, but one of the reasons you’re getting that low damage and difficult getting hits is that Galahad is not really a good platform for these rockets. Try it on an Aphex Griff or a Rog and take advantage of the ability to use elevation to land hits. Galahad gets to try weapons out when I've only got one to work with. It's now working as a mini sniper with Ballista/Arbelists. I've been all but eliminated when a jump of hover bot has used them against me. Try the Galahad with a Scourge then punisher and a Gust on the lowest mounting. That worked like mad for me. |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jun 13, 2018 15:46:22 GMT -5
I’m not judging your choice of robot, as I myself am preparing a Scourge Spark Galahad, but one of the reasons you’re getting that low damage and difficult getting hits is that Galahad is not really a good platform for these rockets. Try it on an Aphex Griff or a Rog and take advantage of the ability to use elevation to land hits. Galahad gets to try weapons out when I've only got one to work with. It's now working as a mini sniper with Ballista/Arbelists. I've been all but eliminated when a jump of hover bot has used them against me. Try the Galahad with a Scourge then punisher and a Gust on the lowest mounting. That worked like mad for me. Frankenbot or not, that sounds maddeningly effective. All weapons get more damage as they get close... Might have to try that just to do it. |
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(°<'G'>°)
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Post by (°<'G'>°) on Jun 13, 2018 16:20:04 GMT -5
All points taken. I used it for a while—Galahad (9), Vortex (10), Aphid x 2(9). One frustration I had was that it is super efficient at eliminating a shield, but you need someone there with a damage shot. I've run the Galahad for a while in many forms, and I also found I could keep it as my only bot for a whole game. In those cases, I'd end up with extremely low damage and no kills. I also found that the rockets fire almost straight on some maps, while in other situations they'll fly over an object if you are positioned well. My issue with hitting is most surely target selection. But in a busy mess, I have issues sorting it and dash bots are good about evasive maneuvers. I can't hit a Kumi to save my life. Even standing stock still and getting a hit the damage is almost laughable.
But I still use them. Running a fun build now... Thermite, Vortex, Aphid Golem. Even at level 8 that weapon combo rocks folks. Eventually they will get some upgrade love, but for now, they do alright in E2. Only success I've had consistently hitting kumiho is if he is chasing me and I stagger fire directly to my back. I struggle to land shots on them in any other fashion. Master league running vortex spectre. |
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Post by rags on Jun 13, 2018 17:05:59 GMT -5
I’m working on the components for my 2nd one and I have similar concerns.
The trajectory seems really low, hard to tell if that’s just how it is or if people are taking bad angles.
It’s a situational weapon. It’s gotta fit with the rest of your hangar and then be used the right way.
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Post by alubyansky on Jun 13, 2018 19:36:18 GMT -5
The trajectory is low. Like the Aphid, many obstacles can block your shot coming up or hitting the enemy on the way down. That's not really a big problem, since you can learn what maps and areas are troublesome. But it certainly favors jump bots vs regular.
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Post by DarkVagabond on Jun 14, 2018 4:21:06 GMT -5
A while back, in this thread, ѻﻭɼﻉ was adamant that Vortex is a strong weapon for all leagues. I'm not sure I believe him, but am intrigued by the idea. I tried to think it through, but still can't see it as a strong weapon. Can anyone with experience running this setup, successful or not, weigh in on this? As an example, let's consider the Spectre, a bot that is synergistic with Vortex: fast, descend, 4 slots. Imagine a non-squad game of equal skill players with Lvl 12 Mk1 on Moon. Everybody has a regular DIESS hangar, aside from your lonely Vortex Spectre. How do you play it, and how is it better than rival SR weapons like Storm, Orkan, and Taran? From my perspective, I see a pile of tactical disadvantages. - Total damage is not enough to kill even another Spectre reliably. 2-shot kill is still pretty good, but not a DB.
- If the enemy sees your launch, he can either quickly walk (Spectre) or dash out of the way and you get a partial hit or a miss.
- Anybody with an Ancile (Haechi) is also resistant - you have to stagger shots to pop his shield first, or wait for a blue to do it.
- 350m range is similar to Orkan -- you are in range of the enemy, or close to it, when you shoot. When you pop up with stealth, there is a chance to "catch" part of a Shocktrain blast (similar to other SR setups).
- Jumping allows you to shoot downward over obstacles, but this is true of Orkans in many situations.
- While instantaneous damage is "high", 8 second reload doesn't play well with timing of descend ability and regeneration time of Spectre.
Thoughts? Check out my thread on the Stuka Spectre if you wanna see some Vortex action in FFA in Champion League. If you don’t like the wall of text, just scroll down the bottom and watch the gameplay video I did. You will see in the video the inherent value of using Vortex to finish off near dead enemies and getting other bots to use their descend first, which is critical in Champion League. Here it is: war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/post/306598/threadWhile I don’t run this setup in Random mode, I just put two more Orkans on my Spectre and then put the Vortex on a Kumiho. It’s a great teamwork setup as you get your enemies to waste their descend abilities and then your teammates can finish them off. It’s also fast enough to avoid most things chasing after you as well. Just do t play it first or you’ll get Shocktrains to death. While the Vortex are not really a meta weapon, they can definitely be used to excellent effect by the right pilot, as I’m sure you will see from the video in my post, and also the opinions of ѻﻭɼﻉ and ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 |
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Post by hjn on Jun 14, 2018 5:56:36 GMT -5
On the Doc, the upper emplacement goes nicely above the low buildings (like power plant) but not the lower emplacement, this one needs two steps back.
Kumiho, I agree, and for some reasons the second volley (Doc, no matter which emplacement) always scores higher damage, dash or no dash/ movement or no movement
One weapon salvo does miracles to take down ancile or flush a descend bot
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 10:50:27 GMT -5
Surprised I haven't seen more love for the Vortex Kumi.
The added height of the hardpoints counters the lack of a jump for angling shots.
Kumi can pick suitable targets easily because of its mobility.
It can dash-fire-dash from cover and bots are helpless (see previous point).
The dashes reload fully in perfect time with the weapons.
Two vortexes do too much damage to be ignored.
It looks aesthetically 'right' on the bot.
It's extremely fun to play.
I imagine a Spectre Vortex would be equally effective and fun.
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